MS change before raid

[juzek22]

No, I cannot. Because its legalized and all people abuse it, you can't avoid it.

1. No, they should roll for heal item as off-spec until they are ready; isnt it obvious? They can also farm EoT as their main spec to get enough gear for HEal spec. That's how it always worked; what are you trying to prove there? Loool, Im impressed you came up with this bull****. I still can't believe its not an obvious option; instead of farming gear, you want people to steal it from others, and you say its fine. Congratz
2. Oh yeah? How do you check that? I used to report people, and no ticket was accepted; no one was punished.
3. They can; just make sure they do it right way and there is no victims.
4. No leader will notice because he has much stuff to do and he simply won't care as long as its not his item.

BTW. Today I joined TOC 5 NM like 10 minutes ago. Guy is coming to the part as tank needs both the Banner of Victory and tank item. Now as my question, whats his main specification? XD

Can you see that instead of avoiding the problem from its source, you simply allow it and want us to report only HUGE and OBVIOUS abusers? Its like you allow small crimes to happen and hopefully eliminate the big ones, which obviously are not going to happen because you don't chase the crime; you want the victims to do all the work.

DISGUSTING

[Obnoxious]

You're under the illusion that doing more about that is our responsibility. If we still had signatures in the Forum, I'd probably have added the fact we do more than retail themselves did about "ninja looting" - which was nothing, they had no rules against it. We do, but they are limited.

As it says in the post about reporting this, "GMs should NOT be your shield against ninjas. Please bear in mind that this will not stop all ninjas and it's your best intent to take measures yourself and avoid suspicious raids, especially when leaders refuse to explain looting rules."

Once more, for the ones in the back, I guess: you're fully allowed to lead your own raids, make sure no piece of loot is stolen and not allow anyone to call an MS change. The only thing stopping you is wanting others to do that work for you.

[OhieMitzen]

No, I cannot. Because its legalized and all people abuse it, you can't avoid it.

1. No, they should roll for heal item as off-spec until they are ready; isnt it obvious? They can also farm EoT as their main spec to get enough gear for HEal spec. That's how it always worked; what are you trying to prove there? Loool, Im impressed you came up with this bull****. I still can't believe its not an obvious option; instead of farming gear, you want people to steal it from others, and you say its fine. Congratz

Aren't raids there to be farmed for gear? Why else would you spam them? Why would I farm RDF for EoT's for gear that could easily be replaced by proper raid items. That's one way it works, but not the only way.

2. Oh yeah? How do you check that? I used to report people, and no ticket was accepted; no one was punished.

My bet is you provided insufficient amount/quality evidence, or you had no case to begin with. Reporting Players.

3. They can; just make sure they do it right way and there is no victims.

Who would be the victim between the two, a person who isn't allowed to roll for item set they want, or the person who is allowed to roll for item set they want. Both are participating in the same raid, they are working together to achieve the common goal: kill and loot.
There's no crime committed, thus there's no victim, if both players played by Warmane's & RL's set of rules.

4. No leader will notice because he has much stuff to do and he simply won't care as long as its not his item.

Some do notice, and some don't care. Find better PUG's or lead one yourself with your own rules. Better yet, join a guild and only raid with them.
It's like RL's too are humen with their own agendas in the play. They aren't perfect, nor are they saints.

BTW. Today I joined TOC 5 NM like 10 minutes ago. Guy is coming to the part as tank needs both the Banner of Victory and tank item. Now as my question, whats his main specification? XD

Was he allowed to change MS? If he was allowed to switch MS to DPS, and won the tank item, he'd be a ninja. If he didn't change MS and won BoV, he ninja'd BoV.
Why you make it sound like this was somehow hard to understand.

Can you see that instead of avoiding the problem from its source, you simply allow it and want us to report only HUGE and OBVIOUS abusers? Its like you allow small crimes to happen and hopefully eliminate the big ones, which obviously are not going to happen because you don't chase the crime; you want the victims to do all the work.

Do tell everybody what kind of system would prevent rule breaking from happening 100%?
We have Warmane's general rules, and we have each raid's more specific rules set by RL. The rules are there to discourage rule breakers, because if you break the rules, you'll have to face consequences of your actions.
Reporting rule breaking behavior falls to players, as creating automated system to prevent all that is impossible.

[angrylol]

Once more, for the ones in the back, I guess: you're fully allowed to lead your own raids, make sure no piece of loot is stolen and not allow anyone to call an MS change. The only thing stopping you is wanting others to do that work for you.

We all judge things by our own merits, this guy has judged us all dirty ninjas. It's a bad advice in this case, this guy would get banned for ninja looting in record time.

[juzek22]

Aren't raids there to be farmed for gear? Why else would you spam them? Why would I farm RDF for EoT's for gear that could easily be replaced by proper raid items? That's one way it works, but not the only way.

You must be kidding me, right? Arent random heroics, EoT items + BoE's to get early gear to be able to raid and play with your spec and role? you can still get some items as OS for another role. That's the natural process of finding gear.

My bet is you provided insufficient amount/quality evidence, or you had no case to begin with. Reporting Players.

Your current system makes catching crimes hard enough and works with such delay that ninjas feel pretty safe. After 1-2 days of waiting, I already know I won't get the item back. People will say "whatever" instead of waiting for punishment.

Who would be the victim between the two—a person who isn't allowed to roll for the item set they want or the person who is allowed to roll for the item set they want? Both are participating in the same raid; they are working together to achieve the common goal: kill and loot.
There's no crime committed, thus there's no victim, if both players played by Warmane's & RL's set of rules.

Yes, you are right; they are working together for the same goal, and here comes the question, HOW? If that means that I'm a DP and he's a healer (for example), we work in different ways; he should aim to get items to do his job better (heal items), and I should aim for items I need to do my role better (dps).
As simple as that, our goal is to kill the boss and progress further into the raid. His role is to heal people and keep them safe, so obviously he needs better items to do it better and easier, and he 100% deserves that, the same way I (dps) deserve to roll items that allow me to do my job better. Why am I losing the possibility to progress and grow because he wants items for other puproses? In guild, that can actually make sense; in common raid from global, its just unfair; you can't argue with that.

Some do notice, and some don't care. Find better PUG's or lead one yourself with your own rules. Better yet, join a guild and only raid with them.
It's like RL's too are humens with their own agendas in the play. They aren't perfect, nor are they saints.

You are wrong. Let me ask, do you actually play on your server? I tried it once, and people whistled at me with "MS changes" instantly. Once I said on RW that MS = current role, people were surprised. You made it and stole items like this so common that it became a standard. Another problem is reserving items before raid, but thats a bit easier to avoid. Imagine going ICC 25 as a solid geared tank, reserving DBW simply because you want it yourself instead of giving it to one of the 5-10 melee dps in the raid. Sick you say thats how things should be XD


Was he allowed to change MS? If he was allowed to switch MS to DPS and won the tank item, he'd be a ninja. If he didn't change MS and won BoV, he'd win BoV.
Why do you make it sound like this was somehow hard to understand?

Do tell everybody what kind of system would prevent rule breaking from happening 100%.
We have Warmane's general rules, and we have each raid's more specific rules set by RL. The rules are there to discourage rule breakers, because if you break the rules, you'll have to face consequences of your actions.
Reporting rule-breaking behavior falls to players, as creating an automated system to prevent all that is impossible.

Don't make a window for this to happen; don't make a system based on human trust and morality. This doesn't exist in-game; you don't know the people you play with, so they simply don't care. Right now you pretend you don't allow this to happen, but you have one eye closed and a second eye watching different directions.

Make a report system easy, smooth, and fast to use so people can do it fast without digging too much. You already wasted a lot of time when you were robbed by ninjas, and you want them to do all the work for you and waste twice as much to get them punished.

[angrylol]

This doesn't exist in-game; you don't know the people you play with, so they simply don't care.

You make it exist. that's the whole point, stop pretending to be clueless.

All your personal griped with who and what do not interest anyone. Report with your evidence and that's it. And evidence will have to be sufficient, so people like you cant get innocent players banned.

[OhieMitzen]

You must be kidding me, right? Arent random heroics, EoT items + BoE's to get early gear to be able to raid and play with your spec and role? you can still get some items as OS for another role. That's the natural process of finding gear.

That's when you don't have access to better content. Why would I farm for 200-232 ilvl gear, when I could easily try to get better 245-264 ilvl gear, as my MS has no need for ToC25, ICC10, RS10 or ICC25 gear.
And when you get to raid with your OS, shouldn't those who are there with their actual MS's have priority to loot. It's their MS and your OS after all. Which brings us back to square one: You're just switching your MS rolls with extra steps.
So is it bad to change MS rolls in raids, or is it bad to gear your OS while others are trying to gear their MS? Isn't it all the same in the end?

Your current system makes catching crimes hard enough and works with such delay that ninjas feel pretty safe. After 1-2 days of waiting, I already know I won't get the item back. People will say "whatever" instead of waiting for punishment.

You never get item(s) "back" as you never had them, and there's no investigations to whom should get the items (waste of time). You report the ninja and move on. If report is done properly and the person was indeed ninja, they'll get banned for several weeks. Even longer if they're a repeat offender. While they are banned, they won't steal further items from others.

Yes, you are right; they are working together for the same goal, and here comes the question, HOW? If that means that I'm a DP and he's a healer (for example), we work in different ways; he should aim to get items to do his job better (heal items), and I should aim for items I need to do my role better (dps).
As simple as that, our goal is to kill the boss and progress further into the raid. His role is to heal people and keep them safe, so obviously he needs better items to do it better and easier, and he 100% deserves that, the same way I (dps) deserve to roll items that allow me to do my job better. Why am I losing the possibility to progress and grow because he wants items for other puproses? In guild, that can actually make sense; in common raid from global, its just unfair; you can't argue with that.

What if they have no items to get from the raid, or the items are from some late boss they knowingly expect they won't reach no matter what. E.g. DPS only needing LK25N weapon, but the 5.4 PUG 6-8 boss raid they joined won't get that far. Or what if they joined with sole purpose of gearing their OS.

You are wrong. Let me ask, do you actually play on your server? I tried it once, and people whistled at me with "MS changes" instantly. Once I said on RW that MS = current role, people were surprised. You made it and stole items like this so common that it became a standard. Another problem is reserving items before raid, but thats a bit easier to avoid. Imagine going ICC 25 as a solid geared tank, reserving DBW simply because you want it yourself instead of giving it to one of the 5-10 melee dps in the raid. Sick you say thats how things should be XD

I play. MS change is perfectly fine, reserves are okay-ish too. The things you say are often said by new players, yet your join date is 2015. I'm bit surprised here. I have yet to see another long term player here to call MS changing stealing.
I'm not saying that's how things should happen, but I don't exactly hold it against RL's to reserve some sweet items. I'd reserve items too if I had to lead 24 people and tell them what to do and when, when they claim they've done the raid 100s of times.

Don't make a window for this to happen; don't make a system based on human trust and morality. This doesn't exist in-game; you don't know the people you play with, so they simply don't care. Right now you pretend you don't allow this to happen, but you have one eye closed and a second eye watching different directions.

It's an MMO, a lot of its social interaction relies on human trust and morality. This isn't a single player game, you can't make it go away. Groups, RDF's, Raids, and even guilds are all part of human trust and morality.

Make a report system easy, smooth, and fast to use so people can do it fast without digging too much. You already wasted a lot of time when you were robbed by ninjas, and you want them to do all the work for you and waste twice as much to get them punished.

I would prefer it to be bit easier as well. Reporting takes a bit of time, but I rather do it if it means the person won't be stealing from others for a while.
Also, I'm not sure if you know, but I'm not Warmane staff member, I'm just a player here. I'm feeling like you should be addressing Warmane in some situations, not me.