25 Characters limitation - Multiboxing

[Pidgeonlord]

I wasn't aware that Blizzard is a dictionary authority on the definition of "botting" or automation, or that they have anything to do with what is or is not allowed on Warmane.



If you really want to have this conversation (which I really wouldn't advise, but nobody listens to me, so), then it should start clearly and cleanly with the fact that YOU are not sending singular keystrokes to all of your multiboxed clients all at the same time. A program is doing it for you, helping you to control those characters, that would otherwise be humanly impossible. So yes, there is 3rd party assistance involved. Which also has nothing to do with whether or not it is allowed. I should know, I'm the one that's been posting those rules for the community for years now.



I would understand that sentiment if this discussion had any bearing on how the rule-set for it is handled. But it doesn't. Thus, there should be nothing wrong with a moderator partaking in the discussion and expressing an opinion.

I simply quoted a person saying multiboxer's should be banned because it's botting. Wich isn't true both by Blizzard AND Warmanes rule-dictionary. I don't really see what all the fuss is about. I simply said a multiboxer shouldn't be banned for botting because it's two very different things.

I never denied that there is assistance of 3rd party software involved. 3rd party software means nothing anyway aslong as it's not conflicting the TOS. I don't quite see how that's relevant.

I would understand that sentiment if this discussion had any bearing on how the rule-set for it is handled. But it doesn't. Thus, there should be nothing wrong with a moderator partaking in the discussion and expressing an opinion.

I find this very disturbing.

If a new player on this server goes through Obnoxious posts in this thread, he/she might get the feeling that Obnoxious (and therefor Staff) is against multiboxing, wich a moderator should be "neutral" about, because it's an allowed playstyle. There was nothing in Obnoxious' response(s) which indicated (s)he wasn't acting in official capacity.

[Obnoxious]

If a new player on this server goes through Obnoxious posts in this thread, he/she might get the feeling that Obnoxious (and therefor Staff) is against multiboxing, wich a moderator should be "neutral" about, because it's an allowed playstyle.

If they go through my posts - multiple times saying it being allowed doesn't change what it is - or the rules, they won't be mislead by anything.
Take your fertile imagination/persecution complex elsewhere.

Also, about being neutral: if everyone in the Staff was neutral, nothing would ever get decided, since no one would present any opinion for or against anything (and that doesn't even touch the fact that calling an egg for an egg has nothing to do with neutrality).

[Pidgeonlord]

If they go through my posts - multiple times saying it being allowed doesn't change what it is - or the rules, they won't be mislead by anything.
Take your fertile imagination/persecution complex elsewhere.

Also, about being neutral: if everyone in the Staff was neutral, nothing would ever get decided, since no one would present any opinion for or against anything.

What happened to discussing? Is this personal now or why am I being insulted?

I clearly said someone MIGHT get the wrong impression. A staff member stating that multiboxing equals botting surely is misleading.

And sure maybe Staff shouldnt be neutral, but all the decisions and opinions should be kept in house, The stance which one staff member takes reflects the opinion of the entire organization.

[Dorael]

Honestly im just tired of waiting in Wintergrasp Queue for 30 some odd minutes just for a multi-boxer to come and steal all of the slots. Not to mention the Queue for logging in. If this is allowed what is the point of even partaking in wintergrasp if me and the entire raid is going to get one shot by one guy? It makes no sense and kills the PvP drive alot of players have.

[Pidgeonlord]

Honestly im just tired of waiting in Wintergrasp Queue for 30 some odd minutes just for a multi-boxer to come and steal all of the slots. Not to mention the Queue for logging in. If this is allowed what is the point of even partaking in wintergrasp if me and the entire raid is going to get one shot by one guy? It makes no sense and kills the PvP drive alot of players have.

You can't sit in Wintergrasp queue for 30 minutes sir, the queue isn't that long.

It would take more than 4 (fully sized) boxers to fill one entire side and even then you still have a chance at queuing equally if not faster than them.

Not every Wintergrasp contains multiboxers even, it is really doubtfull that you can't queue ANY Wintergrasps at all.

You mention "stealing" but it really comes down on who queues faster.

[Dorael]

Well Technically you can. While the queue may not actually pop up to confirm it once you enter the Wintergrasp Zone you are put into Queue.
As for "Not every Wintergrasp contains multiboxers even, it is really doubtfull that you can't queue ANY Wintergrasps at all."
(sorry I am new to forums in general and don't know how to go through and highlight comments properly)
I play on Icecrown and let me say. Yes. Yes there are Multiboxers in every match I have ever played. More so on the Horde side but occasionally Alliance will get a Mboxer with no idea of what he/she is doing.

[Styx-]

Well Technically you can. While the queue may not actually pop up to confirm it once you enter the Wintergrasp Zone you are put into Queue.

Incorrect, WG queue pops at exactly 15 minutes remaining to next battle. You then have to accept the queue manually and earn you spot in the queue accordingly. Therefore, everybody has the exact same chance to queue up for a WG battle, multiboxer or not :)
Please stop spreading misinformation as it does not help this thread, thanks.

[Amdus]

Therefore, everybody has the exact same chance to queue up for a WG battle, multiboxer or not :)
Please stop spreading misinformation as it does not help this thread, thanks.

If 3 multiboxers at max number of characters queue when there are 14:59 minutes left for wintergrasp, it means that everyone after them has to wait that 75 players from the opposing faction also queue to have a chance to get in.

>3 players take 75 spots.

Doesn't look like a very fair situation for the other 72 real human players to me. Maybe you guys should start dropping the victim complex, 25 lava bursts can still kill any class except a paladin with bubble.

[Mercy]

Wich isn't true both by Blizzard AND Warmanes rule-dictionary.

Except that a dictionary isn't what determines a rule set. It can be automated, doesn't mean it's against the rules. Vice versa.

I don't really see what all the fuss is about. I simply said a multiboxer shouldn't be banned for botting because it's two very different things.

The ban reason is largely meaningless. The sole purpose of it is to (in quotations, " ") provide a short and quick description of the offense committed. The rule set goes much MUCH deeper into detail than that, and thus isn't determined by whether or not you fell under any sort of dictionary definition or category.

I never denied that there is assistance of 3rd party software involved. 3rd party software means nothing anyway aslong as it's not conflicting the TOS. I don't quite see how that's relevant.

It's relevant because you're trying to use definitions to determine what is and is not allowed, and that's quite frankly not how the rules work.

I find this very disturbing.

If a new player on this server goes through Obnoxious posts in this thread, he/she might get the feeling that Obnoxious (and therefor Staff) is against multiboxing, wich a moderator should be "neutral" about, because it's an allowed playstyle. There was nothing in Obnoxious' response(s) which indicated (s)he wasn't acting in official capacity.

What's disturbing about it? Who says a moderator should be neutral? You? I've seen plenty of forums, including Wowhead and MMO-Champion, that have moderators that actively partake in community discussions and express their opinions and views. I fail to see why a moderator shouldn't be allowed to do that, unless people really do have THAT MUCH difficulty being able to read.

[Styx-]

If 3 multiboxers at max number of characters queue when there are 14:59 minutes left for wintergrasp, it means that everyone after them has to wait that 75 players from the opposing faction also queue to have a chance to get in.

Also incorrect :)

The system in wintergrasp does not balance the opposing teams in numbers. Up to 120 players (3 raids) get invited instantly on both factions, no matter how many players from the opposing faction joined.
The balancing occurs afterwards in the form of "Tenacity" which is applied in stacks based on how imbalanced the participating teams' numbers are.
In addition to that Warmane added a custom balancing system granting a faction extra stacks of Tenacity if they lost multiple battles in a row, which actually counters multiboxers alot more than Blizzards attempt on the balancing system (which you may read up on using Google =) )

[Amdus]

Also incorrect :)

The system in wintergrasp does not balance the opposing teams in numbers. Up to 120 players (3 raids) get invited instantly on both factions, no matter how many players from the opposing faction joined.
The balancing occurs afterwards in the form of "Tenacity" which is applied in stacks based on how imbalanced the participating teams' numbers are.
In addition to that Warmane added a custom balancing system granting a faction extra stacks of Tenacity if they lost multiple battles in a row, which actually counters multiboxers alot more than Blizzards attempt on the balancing system (which you may read up on using Google =) )

Which means that if 3 or 4 multiboxers join like It has happened today in example, if you q when there are 14 minutes left you will be left out. Because there aren't only 100 multiboxers but also 200-300 normal players. You're simply delusional in all honesty, but I'm not surprised in the slightest after having read the entire thread, you multiboxers lack self-awareness.

[turkmusun]

Which means that if 3 or 4 multiboxers join like It has happened today in example, if you q when there are 14 minutes left you will be left out. Because there aren't only 100 multiboxers but also 200-300 normal players. You're simply delusional in all honesty, but I'm not surprised in the slightest after having read the entire thread, you multiboxers lack self-awareness.

If you are left out for queueing too late, maybe try to queue earlier? I don't remember not getting into WG battle like ever, especially not because of a multiboxer. Correct me if I am wrong, but a multiboxer queuing on 5+ characters takes longer time to do so than regular players.

Also, if there are 200-300 regular player waiting in the queue, a vast majority of them would be left out even if there were no multiboxers in the queue.

That's a really weak argument and using it is just a disservice. Multiboxing is still automation - you are blatantly automating the replication of a single input over 5/10/25 clients, you aren't manually doing it on each character yourself individually. The difference from "classic" botting is how much automation there is, but just the same there are various degrees of "classic" botting, from automatically reacting to something to following complex pathing to harvest nodes. So yes, multiboxing is still low-grade botting, it's simply an exception that is allowed on retail due to the compounding monthly fees and nothing else. Trying to pretend otherwise is just disingenuous.

Except that a dictionary isn't what determines a rule set. It can be automated, doesn't mean it's against the rules. Vice versa.

Offtopic: I have been re-reading the thread and was wondering about one thing. I am hoping you could clear this for me. From what I understand, if "low-grade botting" is allowed on Warmane, would that include fish bots as well (it requires no complex path finding and whatnot)? Recently I have seen a huge influx of level 20 characters finishing under immunity buff in Wintergrasp. Have they become legal? Sorry for the possibly dumb question, but I am not sure what is legal anymore and the responses in this thread got me so damn confused...

[Amdus]

If you are left out for queueing too late, maybe try to queue earlier? I don't remember not getting into WG battle like ever, especially not because of a multiboxer. Correct me if I am wrong, but a multiboxer queuing on 5+ characters takes longer time to do so than regular players.

Also, if there are 200-300 regular player waiting in the queue, a vast majority of them would be left out even if there were no multiboxers in the queue.

By late I mean 3 minutes after you're able to queue, at peak hours that's enough to be left out. And no it doesn't take longer for them, quite the opposite because they are in WG already, so they get a popup to join the battle instantly instead of having to talk to the mages. That's why they're always there, to ensure their place in WG.

[mier]

This thread becomes more and more absurd with every post.
Why are the mods themself go off-topic and try to divide the community by calling multiboxer "soft botters".
It's like they want this debate to escalate instead of actually moderating it.

[Amdus]

This thread becomes more and more absurd with every post.
Why are the mods themself go off-topic and try to divide the community by calling multiboxer "soft botters".
It's like they want this debate to escalate instead of actually moderating it.

Well maybe it's because they know that if they had made an announcement on the webpage instead of opening a thread, some multiboxers would have opened an exact thread like this one to vent their anger. And there's nothing wrong with calling things by their name, if they're soft botting, that's what it is.

And this thread is being moderated, the other day a few posts that crossed the line got deleted. Allowing to have a debate/discussion about a topic is a normal thing. But if by moderating you imply that they should ban on sight anyone that speaks against or in favour of it, then that's not moderating, that's censoring, big difference.