PSA: Beware of AH botters when transferring items between factions

[mercibeaucoup]

I often transfer mats between my Horde->Alliance toons and vice versa using the neutral AH and I've noticed recently bots instantly buying things before I can buyout my own auction. It doesn't look like they're being banned even though they get reported so if you do a /who tanaris/winterspring and see a level 5 just be aware that there's a botter on the AH.

[hooqtko]

yeh theres this 43 rogue who bots in stv, put some stuff up and he instasnagged them, he was online legit 5days in a row all day just botting the ah

[Ostlimpa]

I made a thread about this: http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=380070

In short what you shall do is run fraps (or any recording program) and place an auction on the first account, insert it, tab to the other and buy it. If the auction is bought in less than 3 seconds, check the name of the player and report him/her with the fraps as proof.
It is humanly impossible to snipe a neutral auction in less than 3 seconds without some form of automatic buyout or tweaked buyout (allowing one to eg buyout using a key command instead of using the mouse) and also without a quicker AH updater.
A typical addon used for these acitivities is Auctioneer but with certain changes to it.

Some tips can be to scout the neutral AHs (place a character in Winterspring, Tanaris and BB) and check for players (often stealthed) near the AH vendors. Beware that BB got 3x neutral AHs. 1x by the mailbox, 1 in the middle of BB at the docks and 1 is in one of the houses below Sea Wolf Mackinley (this is a favorite for them).

Also send me a private message with the name of the rogue, for if it is someone I have reported before then I believe it is time to have a chat with the GMs again.

[gioco422]

if moving stuff from horde to alliance. create a lvl 1 horde toon. give stuff needing transfer to lvl 1 toon. use free horde to alliace faction transfer. profit

[Ostlimpa]

Indeed but I believe topics like this one regards transfers from ally to horde.

[Anyone0]

tweaked buyout (allowing one to eg buyout using a key command instead of using the mouse)

Which has nothing to do with botting and has always been allowed both here and on retail. You can not detect a bot from the time it takes to buy an auction. If I wanted to, I could use just addons to buy an auction almost as fast as a bot.

There are limitations to what addons can do. Buying an auction is an action that requires key press. Scanning AH does not require key press. So it follows the limitations set by Blizzard.

[dentalpaste]

I don't know if bots are involved or not, but it's not a good idea to hope no one snaps up your item before you can get it. Oh, I've done it, and I'll probably do it again--sometimes I get lazy and instead of checking whether the recipient toon has enough gold to buy it, I price it low and cross my fingers. And then I lose two stacks of knothide and kick myself for the next few minutes.

It helps to give your items a fairly expensive price. Not too high, because the AH takes a cut based on the final price. If you sell a stack of hides for 4 gold, it takes a cut of 60 silver; if you sell them for 10 gold, it takes about two gold as a cut. But out of all the times I've priced something on the high side, no one has taken it away from me. Bots or not, the AH snipers are pretty logical when they buy things.

[mercibeaucoup]

They are bots. No doubt about it. It only takes me half a second to post and buyout my own auction, and they still beat me to it. And this has happened more than once.

[Ostlimpa]

Which has nothing to do with botting and has always been allowed both here and on retail. You can not detect a bot from the time it takes to buy an auction. If I wanted to, I could use just addons to buy an auction almost as fast as a bot.

On the contrary there were rules on retail regarding this, and perhaps you know why. But in case you don't, send me a PM and I will state what certain tweaks to addons can accomplish.

There are limitations to what addons can do. Buying an auction is an action that requires key press. Scanning AH does not require key press. So it follows the limitations set by Blizzard.

Both yes and no. One addon might have limitations. Several addons working together are close to limitless.

The bottom line is that AH sniping, while working within the normal limitations, is perfectly fine and if it takes more than 3 seconds for a transfer to be completed then the player got no one but himself to blame. However when your auctions are sniped at 1 second or less you know something is up. There is a fine line to take heed to when dealing with addons and that's when it goes beyong player ability and/or engages with other players in ways that gives a very unfair advantage.
For example, the Postal addon is perfectly fine to use as it only assists the user while not affecting others.
Tweaking eg, Auctioneer to scan the entire auction house, automatically buy without your consent any inprogrammed items at a certain price, is taking it too far.

[Anyone0]

On the contrary there were rules on retail regarding this, and perhaps you know why. But in case you don't, send me a PM and I will state what certain tweaks to addons can accomplish.

If you mean scanning AH too fast, there should be server side limitations. I don't know about TBC but on all other expansions Warmane has implemented such limitations. I know that client side limitations for this can be bypassed by addons since I have looked at the code that controls it. I am pretty sure I have looked at all other AH related WoW API functions and did not see anything else that could be abused with just addons.

Both yes and no. One addon might have limitations. Several addons working together are close to limitless.

Tweaking eg, Auctioneer to scan the entire auction house, automatically buy without your consent any inprogrammed items at a certain price, is taking it too far.

Addons alone still can not buy an item without a key press from player. I could make a custom addon for this purpose to do whatever I want but it would still won't be able to buy an item without me pressing a button. Automating the key press would require an external program and that would make it botting.

The bottom line is that AH sniping, while working within the normal limitations, is perfectly fine and if it takes more than 3 seconds for a transfer to be completed then the player got no one but himself to blame. However when your auctions are sniped at 1 second or less you know something is up. There is a fine line to take heed to when dealing with addons and that's when it goes beyong player ability and/or engages with other players in ways that gives a very unfair advantage.
For example, the Postal addon is perfectly fine to use as it only assists the user while not affecting others.

If proper server side limitations for AH scan speed exist, it's only the buying part that takes a player longer than a bot. If I have addons that are configured to find only items that I want to buy at the prices I want and I have my finger on the key already, it takes way less than a second to press the key and buy the item. That's the difference between a bot and a player.

Scanning AH should be limited to 1 request per 0.5 - 1 second. Not sure what the exact number is. But you don't know if page refresh happens 0.1 seconds after you post the item or 0.5 seconds after it. That further decreases the difference between a player and a bot, depending on luck.

I have not sniped anything from neutral AH but I have been sniping AH on retail and obtained millions of gold that way. An addon called TradeSkillMaster is the closest you get to "limitless" on retail right now. With my configuration I still have to look at the item to decide if I want to buy it or not, but it still takes less than a second to buy the item, if I am already looking at WoW window. Many people are doing it and no bans have happened, as long as no external programs are involved.

[Ostlimpa]

If you mean scanning AH too fast, there should be server side limitations. I don't know about TBC but on all other expansions Warmane has implemented such limitations. I know that client side limitations for this can be bypassed by addons since I have looked at the code that controls it. I am pretty sure I have looked at all other AH related WoW API functions and did not see anything else that could be abused with just addons.

Truth is a lot of things can be overcome with addons, but you are right that the server should have a cap on the searches. And it technically does as there is a short cooldown when scanning the AH without addons.

Addons alone still can not buy an item without a key press from player. I could make a custom addon for this purpose to do whatever I want but it would still won't be able to buy an item without me pressing a button. Automating the key press would require an external program and that would make it botting.

Exactly, but can "Anyone" please tell me how the hell you are supposed to prove that?:D
Sorry but I just had to say that. That was the problem I ran into when trying to deal with the matter, hence the 3 second rule is so far the solution, but if you got a better one then please share it.

If proper server side limitations for AH scan speed exist, it's only the buying part that takes a player longer than a bot. If I have addons that are configured to find only items that I want to buy at the prices I want and I have my finger on the key already, it takes way less than a second to press the key and buy the item. That's the difference between a bot and a player.

But you already skip several rather crucial steps that an automated program does for you. When a normal player searches the neutral AH without any addons he/she needs to do the following:
1. With the mouse select the Search button (assuming the name of X item being transfered is typed pre-search).
2. Scan the number of auctions available.
3. Select the auction you wish to purchase manually with the mouse.
4. Move the mouse down to Buyout and left click it.
5. Move the mouse up and confirm the transaction.
If you can do this in less than 1 second then I welcome you to the book of Guinness world records.

If players are allowed to tweak the game this much, what will stop them from doing it on other things? A few examples can be Charging in combat as a warrior, shooting without breaking stealth from Shadowmeld as a night elf hunter, using double trinkets or multiple items and spells with shares CDs at once etc. Where will the line be drawn here? You cannot argue that it is exploiting because these examples above do just what the addon on the auction house does, it tweaks things to allow you to bypass other mechanics and/or change the way the setup looks. You are not able to search the AH every 0,1 seconds without an addon, but with one you can. You are not able to buyout an item using the steps above in less than 1 second without an addon, but with one you can.

Scanning AH should be limited to 1 request per 0.5 - 1 second. Not sure what the exact number is. But you don't know if page refresh happens 0.1 seconds after you post the item or 0.5 seconds after it. That further decreases the difference between a player and a bot, depending on luck.

But what good would this do? The problem lies in the fact that another player with an addon can perform an action a player without it cannot. Even if you allowed the AH only to be scanned every 0.5 seconds, that still leaves 1,5-2,5 seconds needed to transfer the items, and the player with the addon needs 0,5 at best with proper settings.

I have not sniped anything from neutral AH but I have been sniping AH on retail and obtained millions of gold that way. An addon called TradeSkillMaster is the closest you get to "limitless" on retail right now. With my configuration I still have to look at the item to decide if I want to buy it or not, but it still takes less than a second to buy the item, if I am already looking at WoW window. Many people are doing it and no bans have happened, as long as no external programs are involved.

All I can say is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nazm3_OXac

[Anyone0]

Exactly, but can "Anyone" please tell me how the hell you are supposed to prove that?:D
Sorry but I just had to say that. That was the problem I ran into when trying to deal with the matter, hence the 3 second rule is so far the solution, but if you got a better one then please share it.

That's exactly what I am saying. It's impossible for another player to tell if it's a bot or not. Unless it does other things that look like botting.

But you already skip several rather crucial steps that an automated program does for you. When a normal player searches the neutral AH without any addons he/she needs to do the following:
1. With the mouse select the Search button (assuming the name of X item being transfered is typed pre-search).
2. Scan the number of auctions available.
3. Select the auction you wish to purchase manually with the mouse.
4. Move the mouse down to Buyout and left click it.
5. Move the mouse up and confirm the transaction.
If you can do this in less than 1 second then I welcome you to the book of Guinness world records.

If players are allowed to tweak the game this much, what will stop them from doing it on other things? A few examples can be Charging in combat as a warrior, shooting without breaking stealth from Shadowmeld as a night elf hunter, using double trinkets or multiple items and spells with shares CDs at once etc. Where will the line be drawn here? You cannot argue that it is exploiting because these examples above do just what the addon on the auction house does, it tweaks things to allow you to bypass other mechanics and/or change the way the setup looks. You are not able to search the AH every 0,1 seconds without an addon, but with one you can. You are not able to buyout an item using the steps above in less than 1 second without an addon, but with one you can.

With DBM a player can send a chat message during boss fight instantly. Without DBM it would take the player a few seconds to type the message and send it. That's what addons are for. Maybe you want to play without macros too because with macros you would have an advantage over a player without any macros? I draw the line exactly where Blizzard has put their limitations. If an addon can do it then it's allowed. That has always been how it works as far as I know.

I have been using Auctioneer for many years and avoiding the annoying procedure you described. I just shift+right click on an auction to buy it. Should that also be forbidden so when I want to buy 20 auctions I have to do 3 annoying steps for each one instead of 1 simple step?

But what good would this do? The problem lies in the fact that another player with an addon can perform an action a player without it cannot. Even if you allowed the AH only to be scanned every 0.5 seconds, that still leaves 1,5-2,5 seconds needed to transfer the items, and the player with the addon needs 0,5 at best with proper settings.

If the player without addon really wants to perform the action faster, he can also get an addon. If he wants to go through 3 annoying steps just to buy an item, as Blizzard designed it, that's his own problem.

[dentalpaste]

They are bots. No doubt about it. It only takes me half a second to post and buyout my own auction, and they still beat me to it. And this has happened more than once.

I believe you, really. I know there are people who love playing the auction house to make money. And we all know there are bots on Outland, despite the neverending efforts of the admins. It only makes sense that people would use bots to game the auction house if they could!

Again, though; if you don't want to lose your item to a sniper, try pricing it on the high side. You'll lose a little bit more gold to the AH cut, but that's a whole lot better than losing the whole item.

[Ostlimpa]

I draw the line exactly where Blizzard has put their limitations. If an addon can do it then it's allowed. That has always been how it works as far as I know. If the player without addon really wants to perform the action faster, he can also get an addon. If he wants to go through 3 annoying steps just to buy an item, as Blizzard designed it, that's his own problem.

I'll jump on your moral train then. So if I can do sometthing with macros, addons etc, then it is perfectly fine and if someone else don't then that's their problem.
Like I said, you must draw the line somewhere. I personally draw it where my actions gives a sharp advantage over another player in a way that might be difficult to replicate or that blatantly effect them.

The neutral AH sniping is a low-water mark, and from my experience most buyers have been running with a bot program.
As for you dental, it works sometimes but some of them got a programmed price ladder and so even if u price the transaction in gold, they still buy it as they still gain a huge profit by selling the item.

[Anyone0]

I'll jump on your moral train then. So if I can do sometthing with macros, addons etc, then it is perfectly fine and if someone else don't then that's their problem.

I saw what else was written in that part before you edited it but could not quote it. What you described is clearly an exploit in addition to using an item that is only supposed to be available to opposite faction. I don't know exact details but that's clearly not how it was intended to work.

Functions for using AH were added to WoW API intentionally by Blizzard to allow customizing the experience of using AH. The fact that an addon can scan AH is not a result of unexpected combination of events.

Like I said, you must draw the line somewhere. I personally draw it where my actions gives a sharp advantage over another player in a way that might be difficult to replicate or that blatantly effect them.

I am a programmer. I prefer automation whenever possible, even if I have to program it myself. If WoW API gives such possibility, I will use it. Sniping neutral AH is an odd situation because it's AH but people choose to use it for a different purpose. I don't support sniping there but I also don't think it's against any kind of rules if there are no external programs involved. Normally when sniping AH there simply isn't any competition from people without specific addons. It's just not what people without addons try to do. So there is nobody to have an advantage over.

Using macros and addons is a part of the game. There are aspects of the game where it gives advantage. But that's what they are supposed to do. If addons were not allowed to make improvements over the UI and functionality created by Blizzard, what would the purpose of addons be?