Revise Ninja Looting Definition

So, it seems that every week there are several threads made about people being banned for ninja looting. I agree 100% that you should only need on items that are for your current spec. I propose, however, that we set this rule in stone and update the Ninja Looting policy. Currently, this policy is just over a year old, and misses very important wording. According to the current policy given by the staff, "Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use." is the only line that applies to dungeons and constitutes ninja looting. Can a hunter USE a spellpower sword? Sure can. Is it ninja looting because it's not designed for a hunter? Sure is - although not according to the rules. See the problem?

The only reason I think this should be updated is because of the large amount of complaints being made. Often they are directed to "read the rules of the server before playing," however the rules don't state that taking loot for an off-spec is ninja looting. There are these unwritten rules, known to those who are familiar to the server, but with the large influx of newer players thanks for Frostmourne as well as the constant slow trickle of people joining, I think these unwritten rules need to be written. You can't direct someone to rules that don't exist.

Here's the in-game ninja policy if you'd like to read it. http://forum.warmane.com/showthread....=1#post2651922

Edit: Also, that thread appears to apply only to raids - meaning there is no official guidance on dungeon gear. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I'm confused what exactly do you want to know.
If you want to equip it on your spec you accepted que with - you press NEED.
If you want to sell/disenchants/offspec you press GREED.

Note that you can't just NEED because you CAN equip(e.g roll NEED on BoE item while you have better one equipped), since you will sell/os/alt it. Idea is that everyone in group has to have equal chance to roll it, only priority is equipping item for spec you pressed Accept with.

All that was etiquette, unwritten and agreed universally be every decent player. But now since we have enforced rule all the basic decency goes out of the window and anything goes as long as it's within rules. So I completely agree that we need CLEAR line defined - lots of players don't even know that there was some ethics about this at any point before this rule took over.

Oh, I completely understand and agree with the loot rules that you posted. Just as you stated, these were common practice and etiquette - however I agree now that there is a ninja rule (that is poorly written) you have a lot of people confused as to why they are banned, or angry that they are banned because, as written, they haven't broken the official posted server rules.

If we're going to have rules and they are going to be enforced, those rules need to be clearly stated so that they can be enforced to the same standard and so that people understand what is acceptable and not.

I do agree that the rule posted there is a bit vague and maybe outdated and needs some clarification.
But it's not really reasonable to make a list like
Needing is ok for:
Warrior:
Prot:
-Plate def gear
-Str/stam/def cloaks/neck
Fury:
-Plate str crit/hit/haste/arp gear
-Str/crit/hit/haste/arp cloaks/neck
And so on for each spec and class. Sometimes common sense applies but there should be a bit more clarification for new players, they could easily make a mistake. And it doesn't mention needing on BOEs for sale, which is also bannable.

TL;DL: Some clarification would be nice, but you can't expect a full "it's ok to roll on this, but not on that" list.

I agree a list like that is unreasonable, but rather just update the rules to reflect the idea that "you may only roll on items that are for the spec that you queued for" or whatever they seem reasonable would be a good fit.

The biggest thing is that, according to the ninja policy right now, "you may only roll on items that are for the spec that you queued for" isn't actually a rule - so how would people know and how can one tell them to read the server rules.

This isn't for me btw, just the community and newer players.

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Originally Posted by lkajsdkf

I agree a list like that is unreasonable, but rather just update the rules to reflect the idea that "you may only roll on items that are for the spec that you queued for" or whatever they seem reasonable would be a good fit.

The biggest thing is that, according to the ninja policy right now, "you may only roll on items that are for the spec that you queued for" isn't actually a rule - so how would people know and how can one tell them to read the server rules.

This isn't for me btw, just the community and newer players.

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I agree with this. There are now almost daily forum threads in support section from people who got banned for ninja looting in a dungeon. And it's hard to blame the ones who pressed need for offspec when the only thing in the rules that seems related specifically to dungeons is "Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use".

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Originally Posted by dolcokidol

I do agree that the rule posted there is a bit vague and maybe outdated and needs some clarification.
But it's not really reasonable to make a list like
Needing is ok for:
Warrior:
Prot:
-Plate def gear
-Str/stam/def cloaks/neck
Fury:
-Plate str crit/hit/haste/arp gear
-Str/crit/hit/haste/arp cloaks/neck
And so on for each spec and class. Sometimes common sense applies but there should be a bit more clarification for new players, they could easily make a mistake. And it doesn't mention needing on BOEs for sale, which is also bannable.

TL;DL: Some clarification would be nice, but you can't expect a full "it's ok to roll on this, but not on that" list.

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Even with clarification like that, we still have some problems:
1) BiS leather gear - some leather items can be BiS for warrior and rogue, or paladin and rogue. What about the situation when "Item A" dropped, its BiS for War fury and combat rogue. Rogue needs it ofc. Should War need or greed on that item?
2) Same goes for some trinkets for me. An cool trinket dropped in icc 25. Its Bis/Pre-Bis for few people. But, its not Bis or pre-bis, but still viable option and upgrade for even more. Should the 2nd group greed on that trinket or need?
3) Classes that can equipes multiple types of set - like paladin, cloth, leather, mail and plate. Lets assume he is healer, he is doing icc. A very good cloth dropped, some cloth classes needed it. Should a paladin (and druid and shaman) need on it, or greed?

I'm for clarification as well, like You. But it would be really hard to clarify these rules, making some serious amount of people mad about its current state, everytime.

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Originally Posted by Vilya

Even with clarification like that, we still have some problems:
1) BiS leather gear - some leather items can be BiS for warrior and rogue, or paladin and rogue. What about the situation when "Item A" dropped, its BiS for War fury and combat rogue. Rogue needs it ofc. Should War need or greed on that item?
2) Same goes for some trinkets for me. An cool trinket dropped in icc 25. Its Bis/Pre-Bis for few people. But, its not Bis or pre-bis, but still viable option and upgrade for even more. Should the 2nd group greed on that trinket or need?
3) Classes that can equipes multiple types of set - like paladin, cloth, leather, mail and plate. Lets assume he is healer, he is doing icc. A very good cloth dropped, some cloth classes needed it. Should a paladin (and druid and shaman) need on it, or greed?

I'm for clarification as well, like You. But it would be really hard to clarify these rules, making some serious amount of people mad about its current state, everytime.

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All the examples you have listed are from raids - where the looting is done through ML, and there are no problems there as long as the RL doesn't take items they haven't won through rolls.

This issue is mostly about heroics, people gearing up, and is mostly relevant for Frostmourne, where gear from heroic dungeons is actually viable.

I fully agree with the OP - the rules should be described in better detail.

Still, I very warmly support what Warmane is doing regarding the ninja issue.

I agree with OP as well. I would just remind some users about this thread:

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=419049

Yeah, not all users know what items their class CAN equip and get an upgrade from them, but SHOULDN'T ROLL NEED cause other classes benefit from those items more. In the aforementioned thread you can see there's a lot ot controversy regarding this thing, so an update on ninja looting is absolutely needed.

Also, a quick reminder that needing on certain items like lockboxes isn't bannable. This could also be included in the update, in order to minimize confusion.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=414029

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Originally Posted by angrylol

If you want to equip it on your spec you accepted que with - you press NEED.
If you want to sell/disenchants/offspec you press GREED.

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As Donald Trump said "Sounds good, dosen't work"
The problem is people who actually need items for offspecc, an offspecc they can't even play because they are not geared, lets say for example i do Culling of stratholme heroic with my retri paladin, The tank shield drops on last boss and I really want to start tanking but I just miss the shield.
IF no one needs it, why greed loot and loose it to someone else disenchant looting it? It makes no sense at all.

Needing on BoE's has been done forever and I'm stunned they actually bann people for it, Bloodqueens choker or any end game epics is understandable but blue RDF BoE's? what the actual ****.
So next time I'm in a raid where the leader havent stated loot rules (cause a lot of them dosent even do that) Should I ninja report every single person who needs for ICC trash BoE's? Talk about overloading the tickets.

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Originally Posted by Vilya

3) Classes that can equipes multiple types of set - like paladin, cloth, leather, mail and plate. Lets assume he is healer, he is doing icc. A very good cloth dropped, some cloth classes needed it. Should a paladin (and druid and shaman) need on it, or greed?

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This has been a huge problem in pug raids.
Just an example. Holy paladins "bis" legs are cloth with hit and haste, Those legs are also bis for some DPS classes. I can se why so much people don't understand this and rage over holy paladins winning this item. Some Rogue raged over me winning the heroic leather gloves from rotface, telling me they are infact not bis for warr and reported me for ninja, Reports like this just takes up the GM's time, time which they don't really have (looking at the time it takes to get answer on ticket).

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Originally Posted by Kovachut

I agree with OP as well. I would just remind some users about this thread:
http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=419049

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These people who reports on something they belive to be right could fall under "false reporting" and get banned for trying to help the server.

The link about lootboxes is really intresting, because Rogues actually need them not for the items inside but to level up lock picking.
I've seen "Dream shards" drop in RDF's what's the rule about those?
What about all the people who need roll on an item? Why does just the "lucky" winner gets banned when everyone rolling need is just as guilty, the winner just got it randomly due to game rng.

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Originally Posted by Disktrasa

These people who reports on something they belive to be right could fall under "false reporting" and get banned for trying to help the server.

The link about lootboxes is really intresting, because Rogues actually need them not for the items inside but to level up lock picking.
I've seen "Dream shards" drop in RDF's what's the rule about those?

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1) False reporters could get banned, but only if they create an extensive amount of unnecessary reports, which would be considered as a spam. Otherwise I don't see why someone should get banned for false reporting. People could just be uninformed and the GMs could explain why they were wrong. And imho in order to lower the number of such reports, one lenghty page commenting on the different gear a certain class/spec may roll is needed. Someone can call me a noob, but I personally didn't know that rolling on certain items, which can give you an upgrade, might be considered as ninja looting and get you banned (like the case with the 2h weapon for frost dks).

2) You have seen Dream Shards to drop on their down? WoW, this has never happened to me before. If I were to make a wild guess, I would say that needing those items might not be ok, since you need an enchanter to convert them into a useful enchant. This isn't the case with lockboxes, because according to GMs everyone can open them by using keys. But I could be wrong and the GMs could be more lenient to the "need" roll regarding the Dream Shards. It's best for you to send an ingame ticket and ask the GMs personally. And IF this topic gets approved, the moderators could add this piece of information in the respective page as well.

Rules Should definitely be stated little bit better, it is very outdated, and the new players can find themself simply confused.

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Originally Posted by Disktrasa

As Donald Trump said "Sounds good, dosen't work"
The problem is people who actually need items for offspecc, an offspecc they can't even play because they are not geared, lets say for example i do Culling of stratholme heroic with my retri paladin, The tank shield drops on last boss and I really want to start tanking but I just miss the shield.
IF no one needs it, why greed loot and loose it to someone else disenchant looting it? It makes no sense at all.

Needing on BoE's has been done forever and I'm stunned they actually bann people for it, Bloodqueens choker or any end game epics is understandable but blue RDF BoE's? what the actual ****.
So next time I'm in a raid where the leader havent stated loot rules (cause a lot of them dosent even do that) Should I ninja report every single person who needs for ICC trash BoE's? Talk about overloading the tickets.

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Negotiating if you can NEED on it is up to every person. I'd like to think that there is some decency left and people would pass on that crystal so someone can get shield. But then again, these rules assume that there isn't and whole logic underneath the rule falls to pieces like you say. But it works, I'm confused why you think it doesn't. Why your offspec is more important than someone elses offspec or enchanting reagents for their mainspec? Rules as I understand them and laid out seems to be pretty flawless.

And btw, how do you start the first spec on your first char? Everyone can do that same with your offspec, I've been doing that and always works great. No need to pretend like there is no way to gear up offspec without NEEDing for it.

And about BoEs, if you NEED it for ms, shouldn't you have priority as long as it doesn't contradict with raid rules?

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that the GMs act different than the rules say and that even a forum mod can't understand that the rules written in the rule--thread does not apply.


The only thing the rules says about ninja in dungeon is the following:
- Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use.

Obviously a person can use their offspec, ergo it's not ninja (according to the rules) even though it goes against comon sense.


Please note that this is not anything against the staff but more a request to update the rules so that they actually say what you actually act on.

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Originally Posted by angrylol

Negotiating if you can NEED on it is up to every person. I'd like to think that there is some decency left and people would pass on that crystal so someone can get shield. But then again, these rules assume that there isn't and whole logic underneath the rule falls to pieces like you say. But it works, I'm confused why you think it doesn't. Why your offspec is more important than someone elses offspec or enchanting reagents for their mainspec? Rules as I understand them and laid out seems to be pretty flawless.

And btw, how do you start the first spec on your first char? Everyone can do that same with your offspec, I've been doing that and always works great. No need to pretend like there is no way to gear up offspec without NEEDing for it.

And about BoEs, if you NEED it for ms, shouldn't you have priority as long as it doesn't contradict with raid rules?

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Apologies in advance for the wall of text, but there's a lot to be said.
I agree communication is everything in this game, But I do also know that a lot of people don't communicate what so ever, if it's due to language barrier or whatever I don't know, Some just never say a word.
But those people are risking getting banned much easier because of it, These rules takes nothing into consideration, it's all up to the point of view of the GM, which also only hear or se 1 side of the story, and I don't think that's fair.

I never said my offspecc is more important then anyone elses, I meant if no one needs for offspecc either, but I think offspecc over disenchant is pretty given, Allthough I gave that a second thought after posting it, thinking to myself... What if someone said that they need stuff for OS just to disenchant it themselves after the RDF thus getting 100% chanse on that Abyss crystal or whatever, There are many loopholes and people are going to take advantage over it, That's why it's so hard to "set these rules in stone".

About the BoE's I'm pretty divided honestly, Because I have allways had the priniciple that, if you need a BoE for an actual uppgrade then it should be yours, the whole "You can buy it on auctionhouse" is a lowsy arguement, But as the mindset of players in the game changed, I changed with it, I can't bother discussing it with people anymore cause it wount change anything, Everyone needs on BoE's nowadays, it has become such a normal thing to do, But then from nowhere like a slap in the face people get banned for it, that's why I was so stunned over it because even now after the ninja policy has become known by almost everyone, people STILL need on BoE's, almost everyone does.

If you do a RDF, you se a guy needing on a BoE he dosen't really need, not even for his class or whatever, Do you need it too? just so this greedy guy dosen't get it? No, then you get banned... If you se someone needing on BoE's you actually have to pass it to them, printscreen, upload to an external website, link the pictures in a ticket to a GM and then that ticket will take about a week to get answered, Is this really what it has to come down to? It's absolutely ridiculous.
This whole Ninja policy started because so much people was complaining that people ninja items they dont or can't even use just to NPC them for 10-20 gold, because **** everyone else right, it's all about me.
It was becomming a trend, just like the needing on BoE's, Reserving loot in raids, selling ToC trophies to anyone cause its 50 gold...
Warmane wanted to stop that so they posted the ninja policy.
Thats why the rules say - Player need rolling (group loot) on items which he cannot even use.

I hate to think that the whole reason why needing on blue BoE from rdf or offspecc rolling need (when no one wants the item) became actual ninjaing was because some GM personally thought so by that time and now they have to stand by it.

P.S.
When I win a blue BoE you know what I do with it?
I give it away, I honestly take my time to inspect new level 80's and if they need it I give it to them for free, just few days ago I gave a level 75 Prot Warrior the "Harbingers bone band" (the ICC trash BoE), Told him, here's something to look forward to when you level.
200 gold is nothing to me, but to him that ring is a humongous uppgrade.