AV graveyard farming and Deserter debuff for avoiding being farmed on AV

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Originally Posted by dlugii

We also should determine crucial rules (or let's call it "boundary conditions"):

1. We ought to agree that graveyard camping is the cause of the whole situation: where fair players attempting to play the game according to objectives are unfairly punished by custom mechanics brought by server's Staff. "Miserable experience" is another thing but it doesn't seem that server's Staff cares that much if players like the server and community...
2. Are campers "untouchable" at all? I am not talking about bans here, don't get excited, Arbiter. Are any "other means of punishment" applicable or nothing at all? I am asking about this because, well... Graveyard camping is cause of the difficult situation (number 1).

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From my perspective neither graveyard camping or the afk system is the cause of the whole situation. It's the result of them both existing. HK farming was going on before the afk system was changed except the people being farmed almost always ran to another graveyard and at least temporarily reset the chase. However, there was a real problem with people afking in battlegrounds so it's not as simple as just removing some restrictions. Whatever happens will need to account for people trying to afk for honor.

I would be surprised to see graveyard camping become punishable.

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Originally Posted by Repost

From my perspective neither graveyard camping or the afk system is the cause of the whole situation. It's the result of them both existing.

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Yes, I am aware it's combination of graveyard farming with anti-AFK system that causes the issue. I just wanted to clarify what we are standing on so we can narrow down ideas to what's actually possible.

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Originally Posted by Repost

I would be surprised to see graveyard camping become punishable.

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I agree that it's highly questionable and in general should not be touched but with anti-AFK system as we have now something ought to be done about it. So either resign from current anti-AFK, leave graveyard farming with losing side being able to avoid it fairly and perhaps work different solution for AFKers or leave anti-AFK system as it is and do something about graveyard farming which in those conditions results in unfair anti-AFK punishments.

Enough said that 20 years ago on Vanilla the AFK problem existed too and I am 99% sure Blizzard had solutions like our current anti-AFK systems on table. But they haven't decided to implement it because it result in unfair punishments on top of other flaws it has which I have already mentioned before. And people still avoid this mechanic occasionally performing PvP actions but for those there's nothing to do but being kicked by GM I think.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

You can call any lose "miserable situation" but scale of the incident is what makes the difference.

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No, it doesn't. You're in a PvP activity, the "scale" of how much you or your team gets killed is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

Again - scale of the event matters and finding yourself in any of the situations you listed is much different from graveyard farming when you attempt to "measure" them. And in addition there's one major difference between "being ganked, or facing better teams in Arena, or being attacked by multiboxers, or due to repeatedly losing in Battlegrounds" and getting graveyard camped in AV - you can stop (avoid) the situation without consequences or you can find a walkaround. There is no walkaround or way to stop being graveyard camped but try to run to different graveyard and risk Deserter.

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The "workaround" is don't get yourself in the position of being camped in the first place. For the third time now (I think) no one begins graveyard camped, that's something you let happen, be it by being weaker or less skilled or both.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

Yes, you've been avoiding because you haven't touched this topic prior to this paragraph.

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A paragraph where I wrote what you already knew, after having stated you already knew all that. My time is precious, I will avoid wasting it at every chance I get, yes.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

Nevertheless - what's wrong with "people who would die and just not respawn to avoid getting camped" actually? That campers can't camp? This is just the situation they have caused themselves because their pathetic play style makes people stop respawn. Read what you wrote yourself, just from the other side's point of view as if graveyard campers were the target audience:
"don't let your side get in the position of getting <the opponent> graveyard camped"
or "They are preventing you from winning, are they not? Your side let itself be put into that position for whatever reason, did they not? The goal of the battleground is winning or not letting the other side win. As I already said, you are confusing something you don't like with it being poorly designed"
or "Fix the cause, don't ask us to shield you from the consequences."
or "Get good and with people who are good, and don't camp." - I've altered this one a little.

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People join a Battleground to participate. Dying and refusing to resurrect isn't playing, so if you aren't going to play - even if that means dealing with the consequences of your actions that left you camped in a graveyard - you have no place being in the activity.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

1. As I've mentioned already: current solution brought by Staff also punishes people who would like to play. This kind of solution is in my opinion unacceptable.

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And yet again you don't offer any alternative.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

The "workaround" is don't get yourself in the position of being camped in the first place.

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Why don't you tell people who lose their loot due to ninjas that solution for them is not getting themselves in the position of being ninja looted?

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

Dying and refusing to resurrect isn't playing, so if you aren't going to play - even if that means dealing with the consequences of your actions that left you camped in a graveyard - you have no place being in the activity.

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And dying over and over again without any valuable contribution to the battle is playing in your opinion? You don't have balls to answer the paragraph where I quoted your words, huh?

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

And yet again you don't offer any alternative.

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And yet you don't even pretend to be willing to contribute despite me clearly asking several questions to narrow down ideas to the worthy ones. You avoid every single question or opinion that could actually help in the matter, you just stick to criticisim of what I wrote without providing any useful feedback. And dodging uncomfortable stuff. I will wait for those who can write something more valuable.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

Why don't you tell people who lose their loot due to ninjas that solution for them is not getting themselves in the position of being ninja looted?

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Because they are different things, not connected, and the existence of one rule doesn't imply another has to or should.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

And dying over and over again without any valuable contribution to the battle is playing in your opinion? You don't have balls to answer the paragraph where I quoted your words, huh?.

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Yes, taking actions in the activity you queued to play is playing, not taking actions and wanting to just stall while dead so nothing happens isn't.
Refer to my rule on wasting time for the second part.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

And yet you don't even pretend to be willing to contribute despite me clearly asking several questions to narrow down ideas to the worthy ones. You avoid every single question or opinion that could actually help in the matter, you just stick to criticisim of what I wrote without providing any useful feedback. And dodging uncomfortable stuff. I will wait for those who can write something more valuable.

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I'm here just stating facts, while you keep complaining. I don't have to contribute or offer suggestions, you're the one who wants things to change.

For me, as I already said, it isn't a perfect system, but it does what it's meant to do and no one - you most of all - has offered a suitable way to avoid the side-effects. Nothing of all your rambling serves as a solution, all of it amount to "I suggest you find a solution," no matter how much you delude yourself into painting me as "the bad guy" who's ignoring and not answering whatever. That's getting old and tiring, so reconsider keeping it up, and please, be my guest at just waiting.

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Originally Posted by Obnoxious

The "workaround" is don't get yourself in the position of being camped in the first place. For the third time now (I think) no one begins graveyard camped, that's something you let happen, be it by being weaker or less skilled or both.

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Unfortunately, that does assume they have an ability to change the outcome. Sure, often times they do, but there are other times where they do not. AV, being the most often cited example (but it is not limited to just AV), for example rarely fills both teams until after the BG starts. This will usually result in one of the teams filling well before the other does, which gives the filled team an advantage that the opposing team has no method to counter.

We may have methods of addressing the issue being discussed, but I know that I, for one, cannot think of any "easy" solutions to the issue. And the more complicated ones I can think of are a gamble at best as to whether they'd work. I would say that I do believe if we have the ability to improve gameplay, then we should, and I don't believe arguing that the players have methods of dealing with it are particularly productive, especially when there are scenarios where they are subject to it whether they have the will to change it or not.

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Originally Posted by dlugii

I am looking for a solution to a mechanics abusement which makes people leave the game.

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Unfortunately the game was designed with such flaws and we opted to emulate it nearly identical to what it was at the time. Changing too much will make it different enough for people to leave the game as well, like what retail does with their "Classic realms". Allowing multibox is another thing that many see as a flaw in design, yet it was permitted back then, therefore permited now. You may make a suggestion on the suggestion board and wait to see if the Staff will either accept or deny it and whatever the decision is, you will need to accept (or not). But whatever decision is taken it will be definitive and not up to discussion.