Feral Trinkets ! BiS BiS BiS

You’re mixing up raw AP, AP-equivalent, and effective snapshot value as if they’re the same thing — they aren’t.
When I say:
- 700 Strength =1400 AP raw
- =560 Agi AP‑equivalent
That 560 Agi number ALREADY includes the crit value.
That’s the whole point of converting it into Agility‑equivalent in the first place.
So no — nobody is “adding crit twice.”
The 560 number already represents:
AP + crit value combined → expressed in Agility units.
Once you convert Strength into “Agi‑equivalent,” you stop treating it as raw AP.
That’s why comparing:
- 510 Agi
vs
- 560 Agi‑equivalent
…is the correct comparison.
And here’s the part you’re skipping:
510 Agi is not just 510 Agi.
It’s 510 Agi multiplied by:
- Kings
- Heart of the Wild
- Predatory Instincts (via crit)
- Savage Roar (via crit on white hits)
- Omen proc rate
- Combo point generation
- Bleed crit scaling
The “560 Agi‑equivalent” from Strength is a flat conversion, not a scaling stat.
So even though 560 > 510 on paper,
510 Agi scales harder with Feral’s kit than Strength does.
That’s why the Agility proc wins for snapshotting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

You’re mixing up raw AP, AP-equivalent, and effective snapshot value as if they’re the same thing — they aren’t.
When I say:
- 700 Strength =1400 AP raw
- =560 Agi AP‑equivalent
That 560 Agi number ALREADY includes the crit value.
That’s the whole point of converting it into Agility‑equivalent in the first place.
So no — nobody is “adding crit twice.”
The 560 number already represents:
AP + crit value combined → expressed in Agility units.
Once you convert Strength into “Agi‑equivalent,” you stop treating it as raw AP.
That’s why comparing:
- 510 Agi
vs
- 560 Agi‑equivalent
…is the correct comparison.
And here’s the part you’re skipping:
510 Agi is not just 510 Agi.
It’s 510 Agi multiplied by:
- Kings
- Heart of the Wild
- Predatory Instincts (via crit)
- Savage Roar (via crit on white hits)
- Omen proc rate
- Combo point generation
- Bleed crit scaling
The “560 Agi‑equivalent” from Strength is a flat conversion, not a scaling stat.
So even though 560 > 510 on paper,
510 Agi scales harder with Feral’s kit than Strength does.
That’s why the Agility proc wins for snapshotting.

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every single factor you can possibly think of is factored in, because I compared total bleed dmg increase from x agi vs total bleed dmg increase from x str for 1 application of bleed.
and also:
Kings and heart of the wild scale the exact same way with str as with agi
predatory instincts is the only reason that str isnt just straight up 2x better, and obviously factored in
savage roar and omen and combo point generation have 0 influence whatsoever on bleed snapshots
bleed crit scaling is just saying the same thing for the third time, without it, str would just be twice as good as agi.

560 agi equivalent, is equivalent to 560 agi.. like, by definition. and 560 is a bigger number than 510.
and why are you exclusively focussing on bleed snapshot and ignoring the other 90% of your dmg, like random, not snapshotted bleeds which are higher with dbw (since 167arp is more raw stats than 288 or w/e ap), all the ability dmg being higher from the extra stats and melee hits being significantly stronger because of the extra stats and occasional haste procc? those 90% are undoubtably higher with dbw and its not even remotely close

You’re still treating “Agi-equivalent” as if it’s a real stat that behaves the same way as actual Agility.
It isn’t. I cannot say it more plainly. You are mistaken.
It’s a conversion tool, not a 1:1 replacement for how Agility actually scales inside the Feral kit.


> “560 Agi-equivalent = 560 Agi” — No, it doesn’t.
560 Agi-equivalent means:
“This Strength proc increases your bleed damage by the same amount that 560 Agility would, if Agility only contributed AP + crit and nothing else.”

It does not mean:
- It scales like real Agility
- It interacts with talents like real Agility
- It affects combo point flow like real Agility
- It affects white crits like real Agility
- It affects Shred crits like real Agility
It is not 560 actual Agility.
It is a mathematical translation of Strength’s value for a single Rip/Rake snapshot.
That’s it.
You’re treating the conversion number as if it magically turns Strength into Agility.
It doesn’t.

> “Everything is factored in because I compared bleed damage directly.”
Right — and that’s exactly why the number is only valid for that one bleed snapshot.
But Feral DPS is not:
- One Rip
- One Rake
- One snapshot window
It’s the entire rotation:
- White hits
- Shreds
- Omen procs
- Combo point flow
- Crit chains
- Energy smoothing
- Non‑snapshot bleeds
- Bite windows
- Clearcasting timing
- ICD alignment
- Proc reliability
Your “560 Agi-equivalent” number only describes one moment in the rotation.
It does not describe the entire spec.

> “Why are you ignoring the other 90% of your damage?”
I’m not — that’s literally the point.
DBW’s Strength proc is fine for snapshotting.
Nobody said it wasn’t.
The problem is:
DBW is a slot machine.
- 33% Agi (amazing)
- 33% Str (fine)
- 33% Haste (dead for bleeds)
DC is:
- 100% Agi
- 100% predictable
- 100% snapshot‑friendly
You keep arguing:
“DBW’s Strength proc is good.”

Yes.
But it only happens one‑third of the time.
The other two procs matter just as much.

> “DBW gives more stats overall.”
True — but Feral is not a “raw stat budget” spec.
It’s a proc‑timing, crit‑driven, snapshot‑dependent spec.
That’s why:
- Predictability
- Proc alignment
- Crit consistency
- Snapshot reliability
…matter more than raw stat totals.
If Feral were a Warrior, DBW would be BiS.
But Feral is not a Warrior.

The actual conclusion:
Your math about Strength’s AP value is correct.
Your conclusion about DBW being “clearly better overall” is not.
Because:
- 560 Agi-equivalent =/= 560 real Agi
- Snapshot value =/= total DPS value
- DBW’s proc RNG matters
- Haste proc is dead for bleeds
- DC’s proc is always good
- Feral’s kit scales harder with real Agility than with converted AP
- Full BiS gear hits ArP cap without DBW
- Predictability > gambling for snapshot windows
DBW is strong.
DBW is fun.
DBW is explosive when it rolls Agi.
But DBW is not the “clear winner” for Feral Cat DPS — it’s the high‑variance option.
DC/STS is the consistent option.
And that’s real.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

You’re still treating “Agi-equivalent” as if it’s a real stat that behaves the same way as actual Agility.
It isn’t. I cannot say it more plainly. You are mistaken.
It’s a conversion tool, not a 1:1 replacement for how Agility actually scales inside the Feral kit.


> “560 Agi-equivalent = 560 Agi” — No, it doesn’t.
560 Agi-equivalent means:
“This Strength proc increases your bleed damage by the same amount that 560 Agility would, if Agility only contributed AP + crit and nothing else.”

It does not mean:
- It scales like real Agility
- It interacts with talents like real Agility
- It affects combo point flow like real Agility
- It affects white crits like real Agility
- It affects Shred crits like real Agility
It is not 560 actual Agility.
It is a mathematical translation of Strength’s value for a single Rip/Rake snapshot.
That’s it.
You’re treating the conversion number as if it magically turns Strength into Agility.
It doesn’t.

> “Everything is factored in because I compared bleed damage directly.”
Right — and that’s exactly why the number is only valid for that one bleed snapshot.
But Feral DPS is not:
- One Rip
- One Rake
- One snapshot window
It’s the entire rotation:
- White hits
- Shreds
- Omen procs
- Combo point flow
- Crit chains
- Energy smoothing
- Non‑snapshot bleeds
- Bite windows
- Clearcasting timing
- ICD alignment
- Proc reliability
Your “560 Agi-equivalent” number only describes one moment in the rotation.
It does not describe the entire spec.

> “Why are you ignoring the other 90% of your damage?”
I’m not — that’s literally the point.
DBW’s Strength proc is fine for snapshotting.
Nobody said it wasn’t.
The problem is:
DBW is a slot machine.
- 33% Agi (amazing)
- 33% Str (fine)
- 33% Haste (dead for bleeds)
DC is:
- 100% Agi
- 100% predictable
- 100% snapshot‑friendly
You keep arguing:
“DBW’s Strength proc is good.”

Yes.
But it only happens one‑third of the time.
The other two procs matter just as much.

> “DBW gives more stats overall.”
True — but Feral is not a “raw stat budget” spec.
It’s a proc‑timing, crit‑driven, snapshot‑dependent spec.
That’s why:
- Predictability
- Proc alignment
- Crit consistency
- Snapshot reliability
…matter more than raw stat totals.
If Feral were a Warrior, DBW would be BiS.
But Feral is not a Warrior.

The actual conclusion:
Your math about Strength’s AP value is correct.
Your conclusion about DBW being “clearly better overall” is not.
Because:
- 560 Agi-equivalent =/= 560 real Agi
- Snapshot value =/= total DPS value
- DBW’s proc RNG matters
- Haste proc is dead for bleeds
- DC’s proc is always good
- Feral’s kit scales harder with real Agility than with converted AP
- Full BiS gear hits ArP cap without DBW
- Predictability > gambling for snapshot windows
DBW is strong.
DBW is fun.
DBW is explosive when it rolls Agi.
But DBW is not the “clear winner” for Feral Cat DPS — it’s the high‑variance option.
DC/STS is the consistent option.
And that’s real.

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dbw is rng, but basically all 3 proccs are equivalent or better than dc hc procc, and the static stats on it are just better by a lot.
equip your dc hc and try to be the best feral at this point, until you reach the point of believing me. or redo some of your math/logic

You’re still treating “Agi‑equivalent” as if it turns Strength into actual Agility. It doesn’t — it’s just a conversion number for one Rip/Rake snapshot. It doesn’t make Strength scale like real Agi, and it doesn’t change how it interacts with the rest of the kit.
And yeah, DBW’s procs are all good for overall DPS. Nobody is arguing that.

The disagreement is simple:
-DBW = higher ceiling, higher RNG
-DC/STS = lower variance, better snapshot control

If you value raw stat budget and don’t care about proc consistency, DBW wins.
If you value predictable snapshot windows and stable bleed quality, DC/STS wins.
Both setups are fine— they just optimize different things- with two separate results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

You’re still treating “Agi‑equivalent” as if it turns Strength into actual Agility. It doesn’t — it’s just a conversion number for one Rip/Rake snapshot. It doesn’t make Strength scale like real Agi, and it doesn’t change how it interacts with the rest of the kit.
And yeah, DBW’s procs are all good for overall DPS. Nobody is arguing that.

The disagreement is simple:
-DBW = higher ceiling, higher RNG
-DC/STS = lower variance, better snapshot control

If you value raw stat budget and don’t care about proc consistency, DBW wins.
If you value predictable snapshot windows and stable bleed quality, DC/STS wins.
Both setups are fine— they just optimize different things- with two separate results.

---

all of this is true, just that dbw will come out on top 10 out of 10 times in terms of overall dps, even if you get a double haste procc, or whichever you consider the worst

If your only metric is overall DPS averaged over infinite pulls, then yeah — DBW can absolutely edge out DC/STS. I'm not denying that DBW has a higher ceiling. It dumps more raw stats into your sheet and when it rolls Agi it’s actually insane.
But saying “DBW wins 10/10 even with double Haste” is just not how Feral actually plays.

The disagreement isn’t about which trinket has more total stats.
It’s about variance vs control.
- DBW = higher ceiling, higher variance
- DC/STS = lower variance, better control over your bleed quality

If you’re okay with:
- random Haste procs during your snapshot window
- random Strength procs when you needed crit
- ICD drift
- and your opener being a coin flip
Then DBW is your trinket.
It 'can' sim higher on average.
If you want:
- consistent Rip/Rake quality
- predictable ICD alignment
- guaranteed Agi proc every time
- stable performance across pulls
Then DC/STS wins.

Both setups are strong.
They just optimize different things.
You’re arguing “highest possible average DPS.”
I’m arguing “highest consistency and control.”
That’s the whole difference

You glazed over the gear thing too quick. Essentially you're saying to drop gear upgrades (wrist and cloak) and replacing two gem slots to get the armor pen cap. You need the gem slots and rings for hit cap as well so that's the only option. So you're sacrificing additional stats to accommodate the other trinket.

Second issue is obviously crit soft cap. That's why you would actually gem strength at certain points around ICC progression because of the diminishing returns on crit from agility. Whispering Fanged Skull in particular puts you way over. Death's Choice you also have to be mindful of where the proc is agility and doesn't provide as much value when you're passively soft capped in full BIS gear.

You can simulate this any way you want I don't see any way Death's Choice could ever have more value than DBW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmsvanbuskirk

You glazed over the gear thing too quick. Essentially you're saying to drop gear upgrades (wrist and cloak) and replacing two gem slots to get the armor pen cap. You need the gem slots and rings for hit cap as well so that's the only option. So you're sacrificing additional stats to accommodate the other trinket.

Second issue is obviously crit soft cap. That's why you would actually gem strength at certain points around ICC progression because of the diminishing returns on crit from agility. Whispering Fanged Skull in particular puts you way over. Death's Choice you also have to be mindful of where the proc is agility and doesn't provide as much value when you're passively soft capped in full BIS gear.

You can simulate this any way you want I don't see any way Death's Choice could ever have more value than DBW.

---

Bro no.
None of that actually touches the point we were talking about.
Yeah, ArP gemming sucks.
Yeah, hit/exp juggling sucks.
Yeah, crit DR exists.
All true.
But that has nothing to do with the argument:
DC’s proc is more consistent for bleed snapshots than DBW’s RNG circus.
DBW is the higher ceiling trinket — nobody argued otherwise.
But for bleed consistency, DC’s flat Agi proc is way more reliable than praying you don’t get DBW Haste during your Rip window.
Your gearing friction doesn’t change that.
It just makes your stat sheet annoying, not DBW’s RNG any less RNG.

This whole thread is just a huge waste of text with useless information and buzzwords. "Rip window/bleed snapshotting" is tossed around like hotcakes when in reality Rip is like what? 15% of your total dps? "Snapshotting" Rake with its amazing 9s duration is a meme.
Considering how feral dps works I wonder how you snapshot rip perfectly without screwing yourself over on uptime massively anyways to accomodate for "rip windows". Most good ferals i've encountered try and maximize the remaining 85% of their dps considering cp generation/omen procs are such a huge part you can't influence at all.

Like yeah you can replace two gems, downgrade two items by half a tier and use a different trinket and still be "strong". Are you BiS? No. Are you going to perfom at maximum efficiency? No, of course not. Is it even remotely argueable? Heck no.

So what's the point of this thread? Padding your ego? Not going to work when your whole idea is based on doing an inferior build and labeling it "BiS" when it's clearly not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

I’
������Firstly> What Is Bleed Snapshotting?
Bleed snapshotting is the mechanic where Rip and Rake lock in your stats at the exact moment you apply them. Whatever your stats are during that cast — Agility, Attack Power, Crit, Armor Penetration, Tiger’s Fury, trinket procs, Berserk, everything — gets “snapshotted” into the bleed for its entire duration.
The bleed does not update if your buffs fall off or new buffs appear.
It only cares about the moment it was applied.
So if you apply Rip during:
- Tiger’s Fury
- A big Agility proc
- A big AP proc
- Berserk
- Mangle debuff
- Idol proc
…it will tick at that boosted power for the full 16 seconds, even if all those buffs disappear one second later.
.

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1. Mangle is not snapshotted into bleeds. Nor do bleeds benefit from ArP, snapshot or otherwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

I’
Cat AP - Agility Breakdown VS Strength.

1 Agility ≈ 2.0–2.4 Strength
(depending on gear level)
Even though Strength gives “2 AP,” it’s effectively weaker than Agility’s “1 AP” because Agility gets multiplied by so many Feral-specific effects

Strength does NOT scale how Agility does with the Feral Cat talents.
It gives AP, but that AP is not multiplied the same ways.
.

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2. The Agility versus Strength section is also wrong, or at least far too reductive. In full BiS, Strength proc value can actually surpass Agility for feral damage, largely because white auto attacks are already so close to the crit cap

3. This analysis is far too centered on one piece of gameplay, bleed snapshotting, and on one aspect of the trinket, namely the proc. That is not enough to judge a trinket properly. I’m surprised to see this kind of manual analysis in 2026, when sims can evaluate stat weights, talents, gear, and trinkets far more reliably and without guesswork.

The conclusions are also presented with a level of confidence that does not really match either the depth of the analysis or the level of play it appears to be based on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dzianis

1. Mangle is not snapshotted into bleeds. Nor do bleeds benefit from ArP, snapshot or otherwise.




2. The Agility versus Strength section is also wrong, or at least far too reductive. In full BiS, Strength proc value can actually surpass Agility for feral damage, largely because white auto attacks are already so close to the crit cap

3. This analysis is far too centered on one piece of gameplay, bleed snapshotting, and on one aspect of the trinket, namely the proc. That is not enough to judge a trinket properly. I’m surprised to see this kind of manual analysis in 2026, when sims can evaluate stat weights, talents, gear, and trinkets far more reliably and without guesswork.

The conclusions are also presented with a level of confidence that does not really match either the depth of the analysis or the level of play it appears to be based on.

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**“Appreciate the notes, but you’re mixing up what I actually said with what you think I said.
1. I never claimed Mangle or ArP snapshot into bleeds — that’s literally baseline Feral 101.
2. Strength vs Agi isn’t ‘wrong,’ it’s context‑dependent. In full BiS with soft‑cap crit, sure, STR spikes harder. In mixed gear or non‑perfect crit setups, AGI still wins for snapshotting.
3. And yeah, sims are great — but sims only matter after you understand the mechanics you’re simming. The whole point was explaining the logic, not pretending DBW magically becomes a perfect trinket just because it sims well in one profile.”*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

������Firstly> What Is Bleed Snapshotting?
Bleed snapshotting is the mechanic where Rip and Rake lock in your stats at the exact moment you apply them. Whatever your stats are during that cast — Agility, Attack Power, Crit, Armor Penetration, Tiger’s Fury, trinket procs, Berserk, everything — gets “snapshotted” into the bleed for its entire duration.
The bleed does not update if your buffs fall off or new buffs appear.
It only cares about the moment it was applied.
So if you apply Rip during:
- Tiger’s Fury
- A big Agility proc
- A big AP proc
- Berserk
- Mangle debuff
- Idol proc
…it will tick at that boosted power for the full 16 seconds, even if all those buffs disappear one second later.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

General Majority damage:
������Feral DPS is 70–80% bleeds + white hits

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I'll quote the worst offence to make it obvious this guide is just made up garbage: Rip is around 12~15% of your total damage. Rake hovers usually around ~12%. About 75~80% of your damage is white hits, Shred, Bite and/or Swipe depending on encounter.

You even mention stuff like snapshotting Berserk or Tigers Fury. Neither interact with your bleed damage in the slightest.

And to top it off:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

And yeah, sims are great — but sims only matter after you understand the mechanics you’re simming. The whole point was explaining the logic, not pretending DBW magically becomes a perfect trinket just because it sims well in one profile.”*

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Yeah, like I said: It's a good idea to start with understanding what you're talking about first before you're trying to establish a new "BiS". Or even attempt to lecture others at all.

- Bleed snapshotting
What I was explaining is the mechanic — that Rip/Rake snapshot stats at the moment of application and don’t dynamically update.
You’re absolutely right that not every buff affects "bleed damage" (e.g. Berserk is an energy/CD tool, not a bleed multiplier), but that doesn’t change how snapshotting itself works. The guide’s mistake was which buffs were listed as snapshot multipliers, not the existence of snapshotting or how it works.
- Damage breakdown
Saying “Feral is 70–80% bleeds + white hits” is clearly shorthand for “the majority of your damage is passive/rolling sources, not just pressing Shred on CD.”
Whether your personal logs show Rip at 12–15% and Rake at ~12% doesn’t contradict that point at all — combined bleeds + white + auto‑driven effects still make up the bulk of the profile.
- On “understanding what you’re talking about”
We actually agree on the core idea: you should understand the mechanics before declaring BiS or trusting sims blindly.
That’s exactly why I was and am continuing to break down the logic instead of just posting a sim screenshot and calling it a day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

- Damage breakdown
Saying “Feral is 70–80% bleeds + white hits” is clearly shorthand for “the majority of your damage is passive/rolling sources, not just pressing Shred on CD.”
Whether your personal logs show Rip at 12–15% and Rake at ~12% doesn’t contradict that point at all — combined bleeds + white + auto‑driven effects still make up the bulk of the profile.

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combining autos and bleeds is simply nonsense, because they benefit from very different stats in very different ways. white hits literally scale significantly better on strength and also haste (two stats you call useless) than on agility, but you fully ignore that part. you shouldnt say that "70% of the dmg are bleeds and white hits" you should say "25% of the dmg are bleeds" period. you focus exclusively on 25% of the dmg, and ignore 3 quarters of your dmg