Feral Trinkets ! BiS BiS BiS

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

- Bleed snapshotting
What I was explaining is the mechanic — that Rip/Rake snapshot stats at the moment of application and don’t dynamically update.
You’re absolutely right that not every buff affects "bleed damage" (e.g. Berserk is an energy/CD tool, not a bleed multiplier), but that doesn’t change how snapshotting itself works. The guide’s mistake was which buffs were listed as snapshot multipliers, not the existence of snapshotting or how it works.

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Explaining how snapshotting works by making a list including literally everything not getting snapshot is totally understandable and shows you have a clue what's going on.
It's not just useless bloat, right?

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

- Damage breakdown
Saying “Feral is 70–80% bleeds + white hits” is clearly shorthand for “the majority of your damage is passive/rolling sources, not just pressing Shred on CD.”
Whether your personal logs show Rip at 12–15% and Rake at ~12% doesn’t contradict that point at all — combined bleeds + white + auto‑driven effects still make up the bulk of the profile.

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It's clearly shorthand for mixing two things scaling wildly different. Of course how could I not notice that.
Hint: Autoattacks scale with everything. Massively with ArP + Haste. Bleeds don't care for either stat and they scale terribly.

Also my percentages are based on uwulogs averages. Nothing personal.

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

- On “understanding what you’re talking about”
We actually agree on the core idea: you should understand the mechanics before declaring BiS or trusting sims blindly.
That’s exactly why I was and am continuing to break down the logic instead of just posting a sim screenshot and calling it a day.

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Thing is: You haven't grasped the concept. You're breaking things down when/how they suit your ideas while totally ignoring the rest or glorifying certain aspects into absurdity while mixing opposite parts of your kit.
E.g. you're talking like proccing haste/strength on dbw is useless/almost useless when in reality it's decent. You totally ignore 167 arp are just massive by default too.
You point out snapshotting Rake when it's a 9s/3 hit bleed like there's massive potential to be gained by snapshotting it. Hint: It's not. You refresh the ability way too often to even consider snapshotting anything. Uptime > Snapshots.

tl,dr: you're hyperfixated on bleeds/the part which scales the least with stats from your entire kit and ignore everything else. You mix/match things how they please you even if they're totally wrong or don't work together at all.

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Originally Posted by Allylilith

combining autos and bleeds is simply nonsense, because they benefit from very different stats in very different ways. white hits literally scale significantly better on strength and also haste (two stats you call useless) than on agility, but you fully ignore that part. you shouldnt say that "70% of the dmg are bleeds and white hits" you should say "25% of the dmg are bleeds" period. you focus exclusively on 25% of the dmg, and ignore 3 quarters of your dmg

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-You’re arguing stat weights when the point was damage profile.

Nobody said bleeds alone are 70%. The point was that bleeds + white hits +
auto-driven effects make up the majority of feral damage, which is true
regardless of how each component scales.

You’re trying to refute an argument nobody made.

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Originally Posted by Blind

Explaining how snapshotting works by making a list including literally everything not getting snapshot is totally understandable and shows you have a clue what's going on.
It's not just useless bloat, right?



It's clearly shorthand for mixing two things scaling wildly different. Of course how could I not notice that.
Hint: Autoattacks scale with everything. Massively with ArP + Haste. Bleeds don't care for either stat and they scale terribly.

Also my percentages are based on uwulogs averages. Nothing personal.




Thing is: You haven't grasped the concept. You're breaking things down when/how they suit your ideas while totally ignoring the rest or glorifying certain aspects into absurdity while mixing opposite parts of your kit.
E.g. you're talking like proccing haste/strength on dbw is useless/almost useless when in reality it's decent. You totally ignore 167 arp are just massive by default too.
You point out snapshotting Rake when it's a 9s/3 hit bleed like there's massive potential to be gained by snapshotting it. Hint: It's not. You refresh the ability way too often to even consider snapshotting anything. Uptime > Snapshots.

tl,dr: you're hyperfixated on bleeds/the part which scales the least with stats from your entire kit and ignore everything else. You mix/match things how they please you even if they're totally wrong or don't work together at all.

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You keep reframing the discussion into “you’re hyperfixated on bleeds”
so you can debate stat scaling instead of the actual point.

The topic was damage profile and why DC HC is the strongest bleed-
snapshot trinket. Bleeds snapshot at the
moment of application — which is exactly what DC’s Agility proc gives
you: a massive, 'guaranteed' spike in both AP and crit at the right time.

Whether white hits scale better with ArP or haste doesn’t change that.
Nor what % of the damage profile is made up of bleeds/white hits
Bleeds + white + auto-driven effects still make up the majority of
feral’s damage, and DC’s proc directly amplifies the part of that
profile that actually snapshots.

You’re mixing stat weights and damage sources, then accusing me of
mixing them. Damage profile and scaling aren’t the same thing.

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

You keep reframing the discussion into “you’re hyperfixated on bleeds”
so you can debate stat scaling instead of the actual point.

The topic was damage profile and why DC HC is the strongest bleed-
snapshot trinket. Bleeds snapshot at the
moment of application — which is exactly what DC’s Agility proc gives
you: a massive, 'guaranteed' spike in both AP and crit at the right time.

Whether white hits scale better with ArP or haste doesn’t change that.
Nor what % of the damage profile is made up of bleeds/white hits
Bleeds + white + auto-driven effects still make up the majority of
feral’s damage, and DC’s proc directly amplifies the part of that
profile that actually snapshots.

You’re mixing stat weights and damage sources, then accusing me of
mixing them. Damage profile and scaling aren’t the same thing.

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You called this threat "Feral Trinkets ! BIS BIS BIS" not "Feral Trinkets ! Most convenient to snapshot bleeds, but overall big dmg loss Most convenient to snapshot bleeds, but overall big dmg loss Most convenient to snapshot bleeds, but overall big dmg loss"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

You keep reframing the discussion into “you’re hyperfixated on bleeds”
so you can debate stat scaling instead of the actual point.

The topic was damage profile and why DC HC is the strongest bleed-
snapshot trinket. Bleeds snapshot at the
moment of application — which is exactly what DC’s Agility proc gives
you: a massive, 'guaranteed' spike in both AP and crit at the right time.

Whether white hits scale better with ArP or haste doesn’t change that.
Nor what % of the damage profile is made up of bleeds/white hits
Bleeds + white + auto-driven effects still make up the majority of
feral’s damage, and DC’s proc directly amplifies the part of that
profile that actually snapshots.

You’re mixing stat weights and damage sources, then accusing me of
mixing them. Damage profile and scaling aren’t the same thing.

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I'm not mixing anything. All I do is keep repeating the same argument: DC HC is terrible compared to dbw because your entire kit suffers from using it.
You keep arguing how incredibily valuable having a single proc line up with your other trinket it. And how imprortant it is for that proc to be agility.

Dropping 150+ Haste and some agility, because somehow you have to make up for the lack of 167 arp on your 2nd trinket and you religiously keep ignoring that fact, is going to kill everything you could gain by having a consistent proc.

I keep "reframing" the discussion into actual facts. Not some "but I feel like this is HUGE!" garbage.

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Originally Posted by Blind

I'm not mixing anything. All I do is keep repeating the same argument: DC HC is terrible compared to dbw because your entire kit suffers from using it.
You keep arguing how incredibily valuable having a single proc line up with your other trinket it. And how imprortant it is for that proc to be agility.

Dropping 150+ Haste and some agility, because somehow you have to make up for the lack of 167 arp on your 2nd trinket and you religiously keep ignoring that fact, is going to kill everything you could gain by having a consistent proc.

I keep "reframing" the discussion into actual facts. Not some "but I feel like this is HUGE!" garbage.

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You’re still shifting the discussion into stat weights instead of addressing the actual mechanic being discussed.
The point wasn’t “DC vs DBW overall value,” it was specifically why DC HC is the strongest bleed‑snapshot trinket. Snapshotting is a timing mechanic, not a stat‑weight comparison.
Bleeds take a permanent snapshot of AP/crit at application, and DC’s proc gives the largest, most reliable AP+crit spike at the exact moment you want to apply Rip/Rake.
Whether DBW gives more ArP or haste doesn’t change that. ArP doesn’t affect bleeds at all, and haste doesn’t affect snapshotting. Those stats matter for total DPS, but they’re irrelevant to the snapshot mechanic itself.
Damage profile ≠ scaling.
Scaling ≠ snapshotting.
You’re mixing those concepts and then accusing me of doing it.
If you want to argue “DBW is better overall DPS,” that’s a different topic.
But for bleed snapshotting specifically, DC HC is mechanically the strongest proc in the game.

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Originally Posted by Allylilith

You called this threat "Feral Trinkets ! BIS BIS BIS" not "Feral Trinkets ! Most convenient to snapshot bleeds, but overall big dmg loss Most convenient to snapshot bleeds, but overall big dmg loss Most convenient to snapshot bleeds, but overall big dmg loss"

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The title doesn’t change the mechanics being discussed.
The thread is about feral trinkets, and part of evaluating trinkets is understanding why certain procs interact with the spec’s damage profile the way they do.
Explaining that DC HC is the strongest bleed‑snapshot trinket is not a contradiction to overall BiS lists — it’s a mechanical fact about how Rip/Rake snapshot AP and crit at application. That interaction exists regardless of whether DBW provides more total DPS in a full sim.
You’re treating “overall DPS ranking” and “snapshot strength” as if they’re mutually exclusive topics. They aren’t.
A trinket can be:
- best for snapshotting,
while another is
- best for total DPS.
Both statements can be true because they describe different mechanics.
The point stands:
DC HC provides the strongest AP+crit spike for snapshotting bleeds.
Whether or not it’s BiS overall is a separate discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

You’re still shifting the discussion into stat weights instead of addressing the actual mechanic being discussed.
The point wasn’t “DC vs DBW overall value,” it was specifically why DC HC is the strongest bleed‑snapshot trinket. Snapshotting is a timing mechanic, not a stat‑weight comparison.
Bleeds take a permanent snapshot of AP/crit at application, and DC’s proc gives the largest, most reliable AP+crit spike at the exact moment you want to apply Rip/Rake.
Whether DBW gives more ArP or haste doesn’t change that. ArP doesn’t affect bleeds at all, and haste doesn’t affect snapshotting. Those stats matter for total DPS, but they’re irrelevant to the snapshot mechanic itself.
Damage profile ≠ scaling.
Scaling ≠ snapshotting.
You’re mixing those concepts and then accusing me of doing it.
If you want to argue “DBW is better overall DPS,” that’s a different topic.
But for bleed snapshotting specifically, DC HC is mechanically the strongest proc in the game.

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Aha. So it's not about min-maxing/BiS or whatever and you simply chose a wrong title because you only wanted to talk about a niche part of the entire kit and ignore the rest. For Bleed-Snapshotting simply regemming everything into agility/strength and dropping arp entirely would be best btw. You'd also have better performance with WFS than STS - as we know now ArP is useless and should be avoided like the plague bEcAuSe Bl33dzzz.

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

My goal here isn’t to stir drama — it’s to get more players to look past inherited/googled wisdom and start recognizing the difference between assumed BiS and actual BiS based on real mechanics and real performance.

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Oh, wait.
And a bit before that:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

A lot of what the community still calls “BiS” today is really just recycled advice from years ago — advice that doesn’t hold up when you actually look at the stats, the procs, and how the spec really functions in combat.
That’s why I’m making this post.
Not to argue, not to be contrary, but to mythbust the assumptions people take for granted and show the difference between known‑BiS and actual‑BiS.
If we care about min‑maxing, snapshotting, and squeezing every drop of performance out of our class, then we need to stop repeating old lists and start looking at the real numbers again.

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Do you actually read and understand what you write? Like you seemingly misunderstood the concept of what "BiS" means.
BiS means "best in slot" when you look at the entire kit. Or what's next? A "Biggest Bite Setup" no matter how nonsensical it is in a practical sense? "BUT THE BITES SHOW HUGE NUMBERS" isn't a basis for an argumentation when talking about a BiS-Setup. It's nonsense.

Replace "Bite" with "Bleed-Snapshot" and that's literally all you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nothealingyou

The title doesn’t change the mechanics being discussed.
The thread is about feral trinkets, and part of evaluating trinkets is understanding why certain procs interact with the spec’s damage profile the way they do.
Explaining that DC HC is the strongest bleed‑snapshot trinket is not a contradiction to overall BiS lists — it’s a mechanical fact about how Rip/Rake snapshot AP and crit at application. That interaction exists regardless of whether DBW provides more total DPS in a full sim.
You’re treating “overall DPS ranking” and “snapshot strength” as if they’re mutually exclusive topics. They aren’t.
A trinket can be:
- best for snapshotting,
while another is
- best for total DPS.
Both statements can be true because they describe different mechanics.
The point stands:
DC HC provides the strongest AP+crit spike for snapshotting bleeds.
Whether or not it’s BiS overall is a separate discussion.

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Actually the algalon 25man haste proccing trinket is the bis feral trinket, because haste greatly boosts you clearcasting proccs and agi/str dont do anything for that. dbw is bad because 2/3 times it doesnt procc haste so its useless for clearcasting proccs.
algalon trinket gives guaranteed nice haste buffs, so it's the better trinket

this is what this thread sounds like to everyone else than yourself at this point