So loot bans are against TOS

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December 10, 2023
angrylol

Quote:

- Kicking players from raid for no reason, especially before distributing loot from boss kill that they participated in.

This says, you can not kick player with no reason and the reason can not be denying loot(kicking before loot to avoid giving fair chances).
In this case, there was a reason to kick this player. You don't need to add any rules before raid starts about this, players can not disagree with this, it is unalienable power of the raid leader. Any specific reason for kicking are not stated in rules, so it can be anything with the exception of "kick with intent to not give loot". So "making a mistake" should be completely valid reason.
Or any reason has implication that loot will not be rolled and can be considered as "intent to not give loot", as it seems to be the case here. But then rules would clearly state "you have to distribute loot for eligible players, before you remove them from raid with your valid reason".
Edit: Since this rule is in ninja policy, it has nothing to do with kicking players with no reason, which means, you can kick players with no reason as long as loot is split fairly. And to kick player with reason you don't have to give loot as long as reason is not to ninja that loot.
All this leads to conclusion that leader does not have to gain any powers over looting, and can kick players without giving loot, and in this case player provided sufficient evidence that he was kicked with intent to not give loot and sets precedent that making mistakes, wasting time and wiping raid is not a sufficient reason. Despite these rules existing, there is no such variable or premise as players level of knowledge or behavior threshold available to be set by raid leader. Sufficient reason to kick players does not exist, despite the rules saying that there is/could be, implied to be open for interpretation by players and to agree upon them. You have to split the loot before you kick them. This rule is pretty much "got you tee hee" rule and should be moved to "social mistreatment" or whatever(getting people save and kicking them, since it would be absurd to put in ninja rules some "potential items that player could have gotten"). And instead rule should properly relay that you must split the loot before removing player.

Quote:

- Changing looting rules during the raid, after it has started.Example: You joined a raid that was being advertised as one with no reserved items and after first boss raid leader says that he reserves item x from last boss.

Players have powers to set their looting rules, this rule is based on that. It was stated before the raid started that all items are in leaders discretion to give or not to give without any conditions. Loot rules were not changed, not giving any item to any player for any reason was within looting rules. There is not specific exception with keyword "reserved" as you can demonstrate the same intent with "loot x is mine", "loot is at my discretion". Intent of the rule here is "leaders can not break rules they set an players agreed upon".

I hope my interpretation of these rules are reasonable, though it might as well not be, since I don't have a degree in looting laws.

Soo,
You can kick players for a reason, as long as reason is not to deny loot. [no you can not, this precedent]
Your rules can not allow players to have 2 or more chances on the same item.
You can not take/give items without rolling, unless it's agreed otherwise by everyone.
You can not change looting rules after the raid has started.

Any rules you make within these limits are up for players to agree upon.

In this case, leader had powers over all items, as they agreed and is perfectly allowed. As outcome of rules allow such concept as "reserved", despite it not being specifically stated as an exception, but rather an outcome of player agreement. Yet GM intervened in agreement between players, despite everything being within set rules and limits of freedom allowed by these rules.
December 10, 2023
Fraudest

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrylol

....

Players have powers to set their looting rules, this rule is based on that. It was stated before the raid started that all items are in leaders discretion to give or not to give without any conditions. Loot rules were not changed, not giving any item to any player for any reason was within looting rules. There is not specific exception with keyword "reserved" as you can demonstrate the same intent with "loot x is mine", "loot is at my discretion". Intent of the rule here is "leaders can not break rules they set an players agreed upon".

I hope my interpretation of these rules are reasonable, though it might as well not be, since I don't have a degree in looting laws.

Soo,
You can kick players for a reason, as long as reason is not to deny loot.
Your rules can not allow players to have 2 or more chances on the same item.
You can not take/give items without rolling, unless it's agreed otherwise by everyone.
You can not change looting rules after the raid has started.

Any rules you make within these limits are up for players to agree upon.

In this case, leader had powers over all items, as they agreed and is perfectly allowed. As outcome of rules allow such concept as "reserved", despite it not being specifically stated as an exception, but rather an outcome of player agreement. Yet GM intervened in agreement between players, despite everything being within set rules and limits of freedom allowed by these rules.

MS > OS, Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion, The Raid Leader has 100% power over the raid. Guild Rules apply to guild members. .Class, Pre-bis+BiS prio WILL be CONSIDERED (not promised), Trolling will be severely punished. Reserves: NON-BOP loot, + whatever I'm going to reserve that run.

The only point of contention in this RW is that one line "Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion" is ambiguous to most people. Someone can easily read that as intent to split the loot fairly. Or someone who is good at reading between the lines will understand the intent of that sentence. But it's amiguous all the same. If it's not ambiguous to you, that's you. Clearly it was ambiguous to the people who reported him.

"You can kick players for a reason, as long as reason is not to deny loot." - this is almost on point, except you can kick players for whatever reason you want but you can't deny eligible loot.

There have been cases where I've gone 3-4 bosses into ICC and then replaced because the RL had a friend or guildmate coming. I've been on the other side of it too. But in all of these cases, the loot was distributed before the replacement. It's the nature of pugging.

Players 100% can set their loot rules. They can say "Every item for a class is reserved". They can even say "Every item that drops is reserved". They can't be reported for ninja if they made that clear .If he clearly wrote "RL will decide if you're eligible for loot or not" or something along those lines, it would have been understandable to have an issue with the ban. At least it clearly informs the raid memebers that there is scope for them not to get any loot. But then again the guy rolls in the grey areas with his announcements and claims, so I'm not surprised.

The title of this post is "Loot bans are against TOS" is inherently wrong. What OP thinks is a fair lootban is not really within the TOS. You can't deny 11 bosses worth of loot because someone failed defile mechanics. It's that simple.
December 10, 2023
angrylol

"Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion"
What exactly here is unclear to anyone, are you kidding me? Besides, if loot rules are not made clear and something is shady, player has a duty to ask questions or/and leave such raid if he can not trust these powers to leader.

Rule here specifically states that there can be "a reason", nothing is specified, so it is reasonable for common player to interpret that players have powers to decide what these reasons will be, otherwise rule would clearly state it. It would be unreasonable for players to shoot in the dark and gamble if GM will or will not agree, that's absurd.
December 10, 2023
xTheLichKingx

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrylol

"Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion"
What exactly here is unclear to anyone, are you kidding me? Besides, if loot rules are not made clear and something is shady, player has a duty to ask questions or/and leave such raid if he can not trust these powers to leader.

Rule here specifically states that there can be "a reason", nothing is specified, so it is reasonable for common player to interpret that players have powers to decide what these reasons will be, otherwise rule would clearly state it. It would be unreasonable for players to shoot in the dark and gamble if GM will or will not agree, that's absurd.

It's not your decision nor mine what is ambiguous or unclear, but the GM's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fraudest

The title of this post is "Loot bans are against TOS" is inherently wrong. What OP thinks is a fair lootban is not really within the TOS. You can't deny 11 bosses worth of loot because someone failed defile mechanics. It's that simple.

Actually if you kill a boss then that loot counts as "eligible loot" that the player previously participated in and thus it needs to be rolled off. That's why you can't loot ban them, because it will count as ninja looting. There is no limit on a loot ban, denying 1 boss, 2 bosses, 3 bosses, 6 bosses, 11 bosses, etc does not matter. If the player participated in the boss kill then they're eligible to roll for the loot regardless of all other circumstances.
December 10, 2023
Mvrkz

So all that I have gathered from this thread is that:
- I can join a raid, grief them, troll them, tomb them on Sindragosa, keep a ooze in melee on Rotface, not DPSing beasts and doing proper tactics on Saurfang, failing to bring the spores to proper positions on Festergut and failing to do basic tactics on bosses and I still will be eligible to roll on loot up until the point that they kick me from the raid and I am not eligible for loot?
That's definitely some bull**** and that's not happening in actual raids.
If I tomb everyone on Sindragosa I am definitely not getting Phylactery as a reward, I would get a kick or lootban - depending on who is the raid leader.
It's not the raid leader's role to teach people proper tactics. It's his role to manage the raid, deal with the bad performers and distribute the loot.
December 10, 2023
xTheLichKingx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mvrkz

So all that I have gathered from this thread is that:
- I can join a raid, grief them, troll them, tomb them on Sindragosa, keep a ooze in melee on Rotface, not DPSing beasts and doing proper tactics on Saurfang, failing to bring the spores to proper positions on Festergut and failing to do basic tactics on bosses and I still will be eligible to roll on loot up until the point that they kick me from the raid and I am not eligible for loot?
That's definitely some bull**** and that's not happening in actual raids.
If I tomb everyone on Sindragosa I am definitely not getting Phylactery as a reward, I would get a kick or lootban - depending on who is the raid leader.
It's not the raid leader's role to teach people proper tactics. It's his role to manage the raid, deal with the bad performers and distribute the loot.

Well too bad, that's how it is. If they report you as a raid leader, clear as day, you will get banned for loot banning them irregardless of your failures, griefing, trolling, or ruining of the raid in anyway. The loot MUST be rolled to all eligible players.
December 10, 2023
Repost

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

Also I get paid for YT, if I make controversial posts on discord for the sake of a YT video thumbnail, thats $$$ in my pocket. Take from that what you will.

So basically you're just learning that slander on yourself was a bad idea. Well, it only gets worse from here on cause now you're indexed for everyone to see you're just bull****ting them.
December 10, 2023
ivanduk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mvrkz

It's not the raid leader's role to teach people proper tactics. It's his role to manage the raid, deal with the bad performers and distribute the loot.

hahhahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahhahhahahhahhh ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahah
December 10, 2023
Blind

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrylol

"Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion"
What exactly here is unclear to anyone, are you kidding me? Besides, if loot rules are not made clear and something is shady, player has a duty to ask questions or/and leave such raid if he can not trust these powers to leader.

Rule here specifically states that there can be "a reason", nothing is specified, so it is reasonable for common player to interpret that players have powers to decide what these reasons will be, otherwise rule would clearly state it. It would be unreasonable for players to shoot in the dark and gamble if GM will or will not agree, that's absurd.

Avoid taking any responsibility and following basic rules with this one simple trick!

Just type "I do not consent to follow warmanes rules!" before you start your raids and GMs can't do anything about it!
GMs all around the globe hate this simple trick! It's 100% fool-proof! Lead raids as you please! The ladies will love you!

Or, you know, you can just apply common sense:
You don't have to graduate lawschool to realize ignoring rules just because you said you will in advance will not grant you immunity to consequences caused by breaking said rules.
It's simply not your decision to make. Even if both parties agree that RMT is totally fine for em that agreement is simply null and void because any GM can outrule your agreement at any point.

But keep trying. You might get it someday. Fishbro had to learn it the hard way now.
December 10, 2023
xTheLichKingx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repost

So basically you're just learning that slander on yourself was a bad idea. Well, it only gets worse from here on cause now you're indexed for everyone to see you're just bull****ting them.

Why should my posts on discord for the sake of youtube clickbait in regards to other private servers and retail servers have any precedence on Warmane?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind

Avoid taking any responsibility and following basic rules with this one simple trick!

Just type "I do not consent to follow warmanes rules!" before you start your raids and GMs can't do anything about it!
GMs all around the globe hate this simple trick! It's 100% fool-proof! Lead raids as you please! The ladies will love you!

Or, you know, you can just apply common sense:
You don't have to graduate lawschool to realize ignoring rules just because you said you will in advance will not grant you immunity to consequences caused by breaking said rules.
It's simply not your decision to make. Even if both parties agree that RMT is totally fine for em that agreement is simply null and void because any GM can outrule your agreement at any point.

But keep trying. You might get it someday. Fishbro had to learn it the hard way now.

That's not what my rules state or intend. My rules communicate a raid led with an ironfist that's sole purpose is to clear the content as successfully as possible. Loot is merely an incentive.

I have a ton of bought store items, earned items, earned shadowmournes, a reputable guild with geared and respected guild members. I don't need to ninja loot anything and my intent with this thread is to bring awareness that what many players are doing (which is the same exact thing I've done to get a ban) will also get them banned.
December 10, 2023
angrylol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind

Avoid taking any responsibility and following basic rules with this one simple trick!

Just type "I do not consent to follow warmanes rules!" before you start your raids and GMs can't do anything about it!
GMs all around the globe hate this simple trick! It's 100% fool-proof! Lead raids as you please! The ladies will love you!

Or, you know, you can just apply common sense:
You don't have to graduate lawschool to realize ignoring rules just because you said you will in advance will not grant you immunity to consequences caused by breaking said rules.
It's simply not your decision to make. Even if both parties agree that RMT is totally fine for em that agreement is simply null and void because any GM can outrule your agreement at any point.

But keep trying. You might get it someday. Fishbro had to learn it the hard way now.

You should have pointed out some flaws in my reasoning.
My goal is to follow the rules, but there is just this little thing. These rules are based on existing unwritten "general knowledge" which may or may not include things such as MS>OS, loot bans and such things. Lets call it "an agreement among players". These things have been a part of looting in MMOs such as wotlk, so we can reason that this is covered by this specific rule - which is not to deny loot for people without a reason. This fact is enforced by this rule existing within ninja policy, so its context is purely about loot. This means that kicking people for a reason does not talk about simply kicking people from a raid, but kicking people for a reason before the loot split as long as "an agreement among players" is that mistakes/wasting time/wipes/etc are agreed to play by, which makes player not getting loot a secondary byproduct and is not the reason for kicking player.
Or that's not what it says?

Basically, discarding rule and interpretation of it by a common reasoning in favor for not allowing people to agree to loot ban[this precedent] is equivalent to "you can not go offline during a raid" is put into ninja rules and people are punished as if they ninja something. It does not make sense.

Just look at this rule:

Quote:

Kicking players from raid for no reason, especially before distributing loot from boss kill that they participated in.

You can not kick players from raid unless you have some unspecified unknown reason(what the hell is this doing in ninja rules?). Evidence threshold will be lower if you kick a player while there is eligible loot for him not yet rolled.

Where the hell does this rule say that you can not kick player before loot is rolled? Seriously.

Only way this rule makes any sense is if we assume it is purely in context of ninja looting and there is existing unwritten general agreement of reasons that allow to kick before rolling.
December 10, 2023
Blind

Quote:

Originally Posted by xTheLichKingx

That's not what my rules state or intend. My rules communicate a raid led with an ironfist that's sole purpose is to clear the content as successfully as possible. Loot is merely an incentive.

I have a ton of bought store items, earned items, earned shadowmournes, a reputable guild with geared and respected guild members. I don't need to ninja loot anything and my intent with this thread is to bring awareness that what many players are doing (which is the same exact thing I've done to get a ban) will also get them banned.

Your rules state you're going to do whatever you want and everyone attending your raid has to be fine with it. Their intend could be "ruling with an iron fist" or simply scamming whatever you can from people. Or anything in between. For some weird reason you're the only person i've met in over a decade to require such stupid rules for "succcessful" raids.

Nobody cares about your bought or earned items, guild or whatever. But if it makes you happy: You're part of a rather exclusive club now: Only 10% of players ever get banned. And only a fraction of those can claim to be banned for ninja looting in a raid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrylol

You should have pointed out some flaws in my reasoning.
My goal is to follow the rules, but there is just this little thing. These rules are based on existing unwritten "general knowledge" which may or may not include things such as MS>OS, loot bans and such things. Lets call it "an agreement among players". These things have been a part of looting in MMOs such as wotlk, so we can reason that this is covered by this specific rule - which is not to deny loot for people without a reason. This fact is enforced by this rule existing within ninja policy, so its context is purely about loot. This means that kicking people for a reason does not talk about simply kicking people from a raid, but kicking people for a reason before the loot split.
Or that's not what it says?

There's little to no "unwritten" rules here.
If you really need it explained plainly: You can't deny a raider his right to press Need or Greed on any dropped items from bosses he's been part of killing. If your group killed a boss while he's been present he gains the right to press Need or Greed on any items dropped.
If you intend to give people a lootban based on failing a specific mechanic e.g. tombing the entire raid on sindragosa you have to specify that.
Any other "lootsystem" is just this with either extra steps (e.g. "MS>OS" and rolling manually during trashclear or vice versa) and/or things specified in detail (e.g. item xy is reserved).
You can even deny people their right on loot entirely (e.g. all loot is reserved) or you specify it for each case (e.g. item x/xy/xyz are reserved).

tl,dr: Why you deny someone a roll has to be obvious enough so a 3rd person which has not attended the raid is clearly able to tell what's been going on based on screenshots alone.
Just stating "i'll deny you loot based on my mood/because you "failed" a mechanic/because today it's rainy" is obviously not clear enough.
December 10, 2023
Arbiterone

I'll close the thread because the forums isn't the place to bring your guildies to ban appeal for you. You had your answer on your ban appeal ticket, and that answer is final. I have been told that you are being dishonest and you have changed the loot rules on the go during the raid. Not only that but you are also being dishonest by claiming we have banned you for "loot banning", which is not the case at all.

Do not create new threads on the matter, nor ask others to vouch for you in new threads either. Your case was reviewed by the support team and they have made their final decision.
December 11, 2023
Obnoxious

Since I was out for the weekend and found this thread now locked (and curiously no reply from Fishbro regarding my suggestion of putting his logic to test...), let's sum things up for what should be common sense. Loot banning is allowed, as long as there are clear and definite lines to be crossed for that to happen, so players can decide to join without being caught in some scamming "gotcha" later. Loot banning has to be communicated when it happens, after a wipe and before a new attempt is made, not just let the player keep playing and then later, after they helped with more fights/got locked out from whatever, be told he was loot banned retroactively. Kicking is naturally allowed, but it can only happen after any loot the player participated in was distributed and they were included.

What isn't allowed is to not properly inform players of how the loot will be distributed, which includes clear parameters of what will get them "loot banned," deny them loot by saying they are "loot banned" and kick them after they participated in a boss kill to its conclusion, and essentially do this about the loot distribution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjCHD41I7ok

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