The new ''What is concidered ninja'' Policy

Hello warmane,

I am playing on your servers since May 2015, and still playing active. Thanks for all the effort you guys put into the server.

I noticed a new ninja policy and it frustrated me on the Lordearon realm specificly as you cannot buy 5men dungeon gear with votepoints. As this new policy made room for a grey area to troll/tease players. I will explain in full details.

On the page http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=325598
You explain: What qualifies as ninja? - In RDF needing on items for OS (unless everyone in party is explictly fine with this).

This creates 2 new situations, as there is a grey area to troll/tease people to get banned, and forcing players to queue a dungeon with the role to be able to mainspec roll an item their needing.

Let me explain the grey area: You join a dungeon as a healer, a tank item drops and you can use it for your offspec. the tank doesn't need it. and everyone is fine with you needing it, EXCEPT for 1 player, could be a hunter, a rogue anyone. He can simply not agree just to tease you. So you can click need and you're applyable to be banned. Or; greed it and hope it wont turn into a abyss crystal or comes in the hands of the teasing player... Great fun.

On my paladin on lordearon I got an tank offspec, to get queued with people faster. To be able to get my mainspec gear faster. as players might noticed it sometimes takes over 30minutes to get a tank in RDFHC, I am now forced to enter the queue with the mainspec for that item I need.

The previous policy louded ''ninja is concidered player needing an item he cannot use. example: rogue needing on a shield''. This was fair. As the item didn't got sold on a vendor.

I >>suggest<< (maybe u know a better solution) returning back to this policy and force people to communicate with each other by asking to show the gear the needing player currently gathered and if it would fit. This means you have to keep your offspec gear in your inventory. telling ''I got it in the bank'' is not gonna workout. A screenshot of the gear the player shown is needed for evidence. People can easily swap gearsets with the equipment manager in the features tab on the interface settings. Simply explain it in the policy. And/or force the player to swap his talent tree (with the dual talent tree) and show he is able to use the item for the according spec.
Although you get a little extra work. as its not realistic a druid needing rolling on reanimator's cloak (from drak'tharon keep random drop) while he has 4set tier10 or other end-game items or being in a end-game raiding guild clearing LK every week he participate on.

Changing the policy into ''the mainspec applyable rollers need to agree with it explicity'' doesn't work on DPS items. as I gave an example on heals and tank item situation.
Again, the above is a suggestion. I am on the opinion that WoW is a game about communication. People not talking, not knowning english, or simply only say ''stfu'' do get a higher chance to get a ban ticket on their head as their not helping others.

My goal is to be able to roll on my offspec gear from heroic dungeons (FoS, PoS, HoR heroics), while being a tank. Without any troller being able to BAN me. As their many players only having a dps char who wanna smash through a dungeon to get their RDFHC daily done. As they dont want to wait for 30minutes.

I hope I gave an insight in your new ninja policy and how you can troll/tease other players by just not agreeing as you point out that everyone need to explicity agree with it.

Thanks in advance,
Best Regards,

The Dutch Player.

I don't get how is it trolling/teasing if you wait 30mins in que, then tank starts to pump some stuff about his offspec and wants to vacuum all the loot. Go wait 30mins with your offspec and NEED with it. If you can't get everyone to agree obviously they want to roll on stuff - and you are not in position to deny them their rightful chance to get those dream shards.

There is no way this would work without extreme manhours and it would be still full of holes to exploit.

Here is a hint for you - find players so you can gear up together for specific loot pieces in specific dungeons, talk it out who gets what and etc. If you want your daily/extra badges you simply follow rules and stop trying to take a bite from other players pie.

So, I'm the person who made the suggestion to refine the definition of the Ninja Loot Policy. I think they did a good job, but it's not perfect and you can't make it perfect. However, the old definition and the example you used, needing on items you cannot even use (such as a rogue needing on a shield) simply doesn't apply in RDF - where 99% of the loot issues in dungeons take place.

RDF uses the NEED BEFORE GREED loot system, which already doesn't allow a player to need on an item which they cannot even use (which screws, say rdruids out of cloth pieces at lower levels). It would be a good rule if RDF used GROUP LOOT, where anyone can need on anything - but that's simply not the case.

The issue that could arise easily from the new rules is how they don't investigate further than the reporter's screenshots. Let's say at the beginning of the dungeon I ask if I can need on plate DPS for offspec and everyone agrees - I screenshot that evidence. If on the first boss a plate DPS piece of loot drops and I need it, someone could troll me and report me for ninja looting - omitting the part at the beginning of the dungeon where they agreed to it. GMs will never investigate to see if everyone agreed - they just go with the screenshots.

However I'm not sure what else there is they can do. People shouldn't be able to take gear for their 2nd or 3rd spec over people's main spec.

I dont think you guys understand the grey area. The policy says: (unless everyone in party is explictly fine with this).
This means that if a heal mace drops and you want it for your offspec as a tank, and the healer is fine with it. A hunter or rogue can not agree you needing. Forcing you to click greed, even if they have no value to do so. If you do click need, they have evidence to ban you. It makes no sense.

Thats whats grinding my gears.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DutchShaman

This means that if a heal mace drops and you want it for your offspec as a tank, and the healer is fine with it. A hunter or rogue can not agree you needing.

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No. Hunter and rogue has to get the chance to roll for dream shard and before you can NEED you have to ask them to forfeit their chance. Their GREED has the same weight as your GREED, isn't that fair?

They are not forcing you to do anything, you Accepted dungeon with that role, so you agreed to roll GREED for your OS. If anything you are trying to force others to give up their GREED so you can gear your offspec(special privilege at the expense of others). And that is grinding your gears? How about show some basic decency towards others and drop your entitled crap?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angrylol

No. Hunter and rogue has to get the chance to roll for dream shard and before you can NEED you have to ask them to forfeit their chance. Their GREED has the same weight as your GREED, isn't that fair?

They are not forcing you to do anything, you Accepted dungeon with that role, so you agreed to roll GREED for your OS. If anything you are trying to force others to give up their GREED so you can gear your offspec(special privilege at the expense of others). And that is grinding your gears? How about show some basic decency towards others and drop your entitled crap?

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The value of a 1-2 week-long gear upgrade is far greater than the value of a dream shard & the thing is most would probably agreed on giving a dream shard / abyss to the second highest roller if they could get the item, albeit, people would still report them for being petty. MS > OS > DE is how raid rules are. However in dungeons you don't have master looter and if say you are a druid wanting a cloth piece and there ain't no cloth users in the group, your actual NEED is forced as a greed and is competing against, potentially, 4 disenchants.

Sure, I agree and I don't like these ninja rules one bit. I think it eliminates very important aspect of the game in favor of illusion of security and fairness while holding "bad players" at gunpoint for playing game their way. It's the oldest thing in game developement - change the game, not the players, give them sandbox, but don't tell what kind of castles to make, anyway turning off rantmode.

But this is how wind blows. While everyone can assign subjective value to items that won't change much. Difference is that player can choose people with whom he raids. But RDF is random people farming daily/extra emblems and still have the option to negotiate rules if everyone agrees. If a player wants the trinket or whatever he should create a group for that purpouse, be it trough RDF or specific dungeons, just like raid and use that MS>OS>DE despite Need before Greed setting. Every player has all the options open for them, it just takes a bit of effort to make happen.

I'm just waiting for warmane to implement the retail like loot (at least when I was there, wod).
Boss drops a few items, but only one for one player. If there's 5 of you, 2-3 will get an item. Rest will get nothing.
No more rolls, no more people whining. You did it to yourselves.

There are people right now in RDF who trolls around with this new rule btw, 1 guy asks if he can need for OS and this troll dosen't roll or say anything until the last second, he sais "No" and presses disenchant on the item. Hope the GM's can se passed this and bann these trolls instead.

so erm... is warmane gonna respond to this ?
The fact you can do FoS/PoS/HoR heroic only once a day and dropping nessecary items do start doing ToC/ICC, now with people not agreeing you to roll something for your offspec while they have totally no use for that item at all. is very annoying and makes no sense. Example: healing mace drops, healer has no use. tank wants it but hunter doesn't agree you needing. And if tank does need roll hunter can ban him. makes no sense. warmane ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DutchShaman

so erm... is warmane gonna respond to this ?
The fact you can do FoS/PoS/HoR heroic only once a day and dropping nessecary items do start doing ToC/ICC, now with people not agreeing you to roll something for your offspec while they have totally no use for that item at all. is very annoying and makes no sense. Example: healing mace drops, healer has no use. tank wants it but hunter doesn't agree you needing. And if tank does need roll hunter can ban him. makes no sense. warmane ?

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How about you follow the rules like everyone else in randomly generated groups and don't press NEED for OS if someone says No?
What more do you want, it's been explained 100 times in 50 topics, including this one by players and by staff. They even added the line in rules.

Stop making crap up and fly to your PoS, make a party, explain your rules and NEED on everthing you want, where exactly is your problem? Oh, I see, you want to one-click instant que and **** all over others. Be glad that there are these rules because with thinking like that you wouldn't get further than ICC Lootship wipe with your emblem gear, because no one would ever want to play with you. No one is interested to gear your imaginary heal spec, because if you actually had heal spec you would que with it and gear it up in no time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DutchShaman

so erm... is warmane gonna respond to this ?
The fact you can do FoS/PoS/HoR heroic only once a day and dropping nessecary items do start doing ToC/ICC, now with people not agreeing you to roll something for your offspec while they have totally no use for that item at all. is very annoying and makes no sense. Example: healing mace drops, healer has no use. tank wants it but hunter doesn't agree you needing. And if tank does need roll hunter can ban him. makes no sense. warmane ?

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You can politely ask the dude that gets the mace if you can have it for OS. I did this whole time while I was leveling through RDF and not a single person said "No, you can't have it".

That's true there's not actually a clear meaning of what's considered "ninja'ing";
For example me and my brother got a 4 day ban cause someone got mad over items HE COULDN'T USE and that he could only sell them.
We found a damaged Necklace which I did a Need roll for it (since it seemed I was the only Jewelcrafter in the group) and that person DEMANDED me to link him my jewelcrafting as if it wasn't obvious I was one, but I gladly did. Happens that I still got the ban for that, even if I NEVER sold any necklace.
My brother did a roll need on a Power attack and agility ring and got it, he's mainly a DPS DK and that ring was better than the current pvp gears we are using (we are mostly pvp based) so we use those pvm based gears we could use in dungeons.
We got banned (ok it's just for 4 days), but we never had any option to explain our case, and the reporter person might have manipulated all the "proofs" to look like he was right. He was a mage mad over a damaged necklace (he was not a JW neither he needed that power attack ring aside from "selling in the AH for 500 gold" as he told us, maybe he already did that in the past but wanted to make us "pay" for nothing we did)
I feel like the GM team will believe anything anyone tells them without properly finding more about it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roseroth

That's true there's not actually a clear meaning of what's considered "ninja'ing";
For example me and my brother got a 4 day ban cause someone got mad over items HE COULDN'T USE and that he could only sell them.
We found a damaged Necklace which I did a Need roll for it (since it seemed I was the only Jewelcrafter in the group) and that person DEMANDED me to link him my jewelcrafting as if it wasn't obvious I was one, but I gladly did. Happens that I still got the ban for that, even if I NEVER sold any necklace.
My brother did a roll need on a Power attack and agility ring and got it, he's mainly a DPS DK and that ring was better than the current pvp gears we are using (we are mostly pvp based) so we use those pvm based gears we could use in dungeons.
We got banned (ok it's just for 4 days), but we never had any option to explain our case, and the reporter person might have manipulated all the "proofs" to look like he was right. He was a mage mad over a damaged necklace (he was not a JW neither he needed that power attack ring aside from "selling in the AH for 500 gold" as he told us, maybe he already did that in the past but wanted to make us "pay" for nothing we did)
I feel like the GM team will believe anything anyone tells them without properly finding more about it

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This sounds a bit strange. I don't know anything about DKs and their stats, but you shouldn't have been banned for rolling NEED on the damaged necklaces. The system, like you already know, checks who has the profession and the needed skill to use similar items and allows that person to select the NEED option. All other ppl can only GREED them. I remember rolling NEED on Book of Glyphs on my toon with Inscription and no one said or did anything against me. Also, I asked the staff regarding rolling lockboxes by non-rogues and non-blacksmiths and they said it was fine:

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=414029

If NEED-ing those items is allowed, then there's no logic why a jewelcrafter wouldn't be able to select NEED for damaged necklaces, since the player is using them to upgrade their profession. Are you sure you didn't select "need" on an item you didn't actually need (like for an OS) by mistake?

@ OP

The ninja policy is the same. Aldtharios only updated the rules, so that they would be clearer. But even in the past rolling NEED on items for your OS was considered a bannable offence. I know this, because I remember reading a lot of forum posts, where people complained about being banned and accused of being ninjas in RDFs. And forum veterans explained them their mistakes. So selecting NEED for items, that upgraded your MS, was an unwritten rule many of us already knew. It just wasn't clear enough for the rest of the playerbase, hence why lkajsdkf requested it in the "Suggestions & Changes" section.