Cataclysm [Guide] Combat Rogue PvE

[Griefel]

And what exactly is the "dps increase" part of Maloriak? rofl.

"Green Vial (Adds!)

Every third vial will always be green.

Maloriak will coat everything in the room with Debilitating Slime. This increases everyone's damage taken (including Maloriak's), but more importantly it temporarily (~15 sec) counters the protection buff the adds mentioned above have. As a result: when adds spawn, it's best to have an off-tank pick them up until the green vial phase, then AoE them down."

Source


The difference of dps is too big to be just 500ish mastery vs 500ish haste(if same gear assuming he has reforged his stuff into haste, and u ur stuff into mastery), although I maybe wrong.
I am not "following retail guides blindly" mate the way I am not following what you say blindly, I am trying to figure out what's going on, like the rest of the people here. There is no need for a violent tone.

[Seigfried]

Omfg MG procs
Ok i guess MG procs way too much

However is there any way to prove Griefel's point?
Haste conclusively causing more dps than Mastery stacking?

This i say coz all fights stated above are completely situational deepnding on player/gear/proc perdormance

P.S. Why do people dislike Heroic dummy reports? For bug tests it is way better and completely standardized and I feel thats the correct way.

[Yodoran]

Also, since it isn't affected by Restless Blades, it indirectly hampers affects your rotation. And don't forget about Trauma :D PvE Arms is pretty popular in Cata.

Mangle debuff=Trauma if I'm not mistaken.

I have a question, how do you calculate the benefits of mastery? Because 12% seems extremely low to me for that amount of mastery.

[taralej]

@Griefel Well, those screenshots with the MG chain-procs and the 10k difference kinda close the case. I myself am not a fan of abusing bugged mechanics and such, but if this is the case, then I guess there isn't much left to argue. I already changed the guide to correspond to Mastery>Haste.

@Forbearance Because there are many raid debuffs, which drastically improve your DPS and are an essential part of a raid group (i.e. Feral/Arms, Frost DK/Enh, 10% AP aura & Str+Agi buff). Some of these not only directly increase your DPS, but also change the outcome of your DPS output.
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Mangle debuff=Trauma if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly, which means that, with the abundance of Arms PvE as of Cata, either one of these will always be present.

I have a question, how do you calculate the benefits of mastery? Because 12% seems extremely low to me for that amount of mastery.

Just realized that the calcs are wrong: number of procs/number of melee*100, but MG only procs from MH attacks, so in this case it will be different.

And yeah, 12% is impossible since the base chance is 16.

Edit: I finished calculating. His MH has a 2.6 speed and his OH has a 1.8 speed.

MH HPM 23.(076923)
OH HPM 33.(3)
9659/(MH+OH HPM)=171.23min test
171.23*23.(076923)=3951.41 MH hits
(1196/3951.41)*100=30.27% MG proc
Error check: 171.23*33.(3)=5707.59
5707.59+3951.41=9659 Correct

Does 15.86 Mastery equal 30.27% MG? Yes, it does. This means that Mastery works as intended.

DAFUQ

Now I'm really confused.

[Justicerr]

And what exactly is the dps increase part of Maloriak? rofl.

"Green Vial (Adds!)

Every third vial will always be green.

Maloriak will coat everything in the room with Debilitating Slime. This increases everyone's damage taken (including Maloriak's), but more importantly it temporarily (~15 sec) counters the protection buff the adds mentioned above have. As a result: when adds spawn, it's best to have an off-tank pick them up until the green vial phase, then AoE them down."

Source


The difference of dps is too big to be just 500ish mastery vs 500ish haste(if same gear assuming he has reforged his stuff into haste, and u ur stuff into mastery), although I maybe wrong.
I am not "following retail guides blindly" mate the way I am not following what you say blindly, I am trying to figure out what's going on, like the rest of the people here. There is no need for a violent tone.

I posted such a tiny tiny picture, and you still can't see everything in there. On "Top 3 Attacked" do you see adds somewhere in there? Or just the boss... We were both on the boss the whole time, we're not even letting any adds come with our tactic...

I am sorry but I WILL use a violent tone when someone decides to go full ******. You couldn't even bother to see if I attacked adds on that TINY picture...

[taralej]

This increases everyone's damage taken (including Maloriak's

Maybe this is what he was emphasizing on?

[taralej]

I tried Redirecting w/ and w/o CPs to a new target as Subtlety and still SS yields 2 CPs. I do not know how to reset/fix the bug. Has anyone experienced a situation where the bug reset?

[Justicerr]

Well, another week in, and our BWD 25 ID is AGAIN bugged as well as BOT 25, so no magmaw 25 screenshot again.

Anyway, someone said about the previous screen that there is a damage increasing part of the Maloriak fight, that the other guys may not have attacked adds and blah-blah.

Here's a screen of a BH 10 pug raid. No +dmg phases and nothing special about dps tactic there:


Show me a haste stacking rogue that can pull that off, I dare you.

[taralej]

I'm wondering... If we cut around 20% (Deep Insight refreshing) from 33k = 25.4, minus another 15%, since MG usually sums up for ~10% of the DPS output, instead of 25% = 22k, which is still unrealistic as of 4.0.6 with the gear, available on Molten. So what else is wrong with Combat? I can tell you weren't using the Redirect + SS bug, because if you did, you would've done half as much SSes and thus your SS wouldn't have been on 2nd place.

[Griefel]

Well, another week in, and our BWD 25 ID is AGAIN bugged as well as BOT 25, so no magmaw 25 screenshot again.

Anyway, someone said about the previous screen that there is a damage increasing part of the Maloriak fight, that the other guys may not have attacked adds and blah-blah.

Here's a screen of a BH 10 pug raid. No +dmg phases and nothing special about dps tactic there:


Show me a haste stacking rogue that can pull that off, I dare you.

No double dare? :D j/k

Did you also gem mastery? Because if you did it means mastery in the current situation is even better than agility, which I would not be surprised to see.

I have a theory on why this happens and I could test it but I have to think of a way how but I think Fluid Death's procs generate mastery procs. Rec if you got some other trinket that isn't stackable(eye or rajh for ex) and you could test how much damage you do with that(heroic dummy works, as long as it's the same dummy).


@taralej: Considering the Redirect/SS/Cp bug, and the current state of itemization on available items(too many items with hit!) and given that mastery is so powerful as you can see upper, you should add that it's a dps increase to take out talent points from Precision(maintaining 8% though) and add them into Coup de Grace to max it out. Also because usually there are alot more combo points available than consumable(each SS does 2 cp and RvS does 1, 2 SS + 1 RvS is exactly 5 points) Ruthlessness becomes almost useless and the best talent to replace it with is Relentless Strikes.

[taralej]

No double dare? :D j/k

lol'd

@taralej: Considering the Redirect/SS/Cp bug, and the current state of itemization on available items(too many items with hit!) and given that mastery is so powerful as you can see upper, you should add that it's a dps increase to take out talent points from Precision(maintaining 8% though) and add them into Coup de Grace to max it out. Also because usually there are alot more combo points available than consumable(each SS does 2 cp and RvS does 1, 2 SS + 1 RvS is exactly 5 points) Ruthlessness becomes almost useless and the best talent to replace it with is Relentless Strikes.

Yes, thank you for sharing this, Griefel. The problem is that you can't take those points out of Precision, simply because you need Imp SS and Precision in order to go down. Imp Recup isn't anything of a PvE talent at all and is only used as a filler, as much as Imp Sprint. You are absolutely right about Ruthlessness - a Ruth proc and a bugged SS w/ glyph proc causes you to gain 1+2+1=4CPs straight away. A RvS and an Evi and Boom! However, this is just the perfect case. In most cases you will end up w/o Ruth, since it's 40%, you do 2 SSes, from which one procs glyph, and you're on 5CPs, wasting CPs from that point off. The only thing you could do is this and it's not much of a change. I guess you did a mistake and meant Lethality, since you should have Rele Strikes in your build anyway. Taking 1 TP from Precision just to put it on a trash filler talent, just the 1 TP from Ruth to fill up Lethality/CdG would yield some DPS.

What I'm gonna do is edit the build in the guide from 2/3 Ruth to 1/3 and filling up CdG. Also, cheers on MoP live... Now we can't use WoWhead anymore.

[Griefel]

I guess you did a mistake and meant Lethality, since you should have Rele Strikes in your build anyway. Taking 1 TP from Precision just to put it on a trash filler talent, just the 1 TP from Ruth to fill up Lethality/CdG would yield some DPS.

Lethality needs to be capped, as you can see upper in Rec's pic, his 2nd damaging ability is Sinister Strike. Yeah it was a mistake with Relentless Blades, and yeah I guess almost any filler is better than Ruthlesness. It's still morning for me sorry about that.
I guess Precision will be the only dps increase that remains but it's going to be very small regardless.

Tbh Imp Recuperate - for me at least - helps alot, on Chimaeron for exemple I rarely need any healing and thus my raid's healers can focus on toping other dps 1st, it helps me solo some uglier mobs I need to kill, and it helps alot in slower RDF HC groups. It helped me tank Theralion in our guild's 1st kill when our tank was dead. It's also going to help alot on fights like Nefarian and Sinestra where there is alot of raid damage. In my opinion this is by far the best filler in the Combat tree.

So a definitive top dps spec would look like this with 1 free point usable in imp recuperate or even Quickening, which allows for a very cheap boot enchant that gains us 10 extra agi - compared to Assasin's Step - and adds some healing recieved which is never bad considering the aoe damage going around in most Cata raids.

Also, cheers on MoP live... Now we can't use WoWhead anymore.

Yeah this sucks.

[taralej]

Edited the guide.

Ruthlessness still yields some DPS and shouldn't be discarded that easily. Check the spec that I've offered in the guide - imo it's the best thing you can go for on Molten.

[FlyingDog]

With that mastery bug I guess slow/slow is best combination.
Edit: I thought MG is offhand only mastery, hence the name "Main Gauche" means left hand.

[Griefel]

Edited the guide.

Ruthlessness still yields some DPS and shouldn't be discarded that easily. Check the spec that I've offered in the guide - imo it's the best thing you can go for on Molten.

As you can see I edited upper, as far as I remember Glyph of SS has 1 min internal cooldown so, 1 extra CP that you can still lose once per minute is not worth that 1 talent point.

@FlyingDog: No because Main Gauche hits with the mainhand only.