WotLK - Raid compositions: The rogue, feral cat hate (Serious topic)

[Diemtee]

Off topic:
I've checked some of your vids yea u do usually bring 1 cat but still I find your lack of rogues disturbing :)

Well, we can't bring any if they're not online, right? :P
Or if the guy playing a rogue also has a tank that we need more that day/run. Because of the mentioned bugs that messed up this class before, not many (decent) people are left playing their rogues.

[Sixtyninee]

After skimming over the thread, all I can say is that you rarely find them in raids for a combination of reasons.

1. Finding a good player is rare for any class, especially ones that aren't entirely working.
2. Even if a class is fixed it will take quite a while before the viability is widely known.
3. The Warmane/Molten community is good at believing old news, real or not, and ignoring anything else.
   
   • A good example would be the current state of resilience, as perceived by players.
4. A lot of people choose a class based on how well they have seen it preform, so Rogues are Ferals continue to be rare.
   
   • Just look at how popular Rets and Hunters have gotten.

PS: Combat Rogues bring an additional 4% physical damage buff to the raid, the only other way you'll see this buff is by bringing an Arms Warrior. You'd think Warriors in general would use Sunder Armor, but they don't, and Rogues *can* bring this as well. Ferals on the other hand have some nice buffs, but they're easily replaced by a bear (or an Arms Warrior, even though that would be even rarer) + a boomkin.

[Drakantas]

After skimming over the thread, all I can say is that you rarely find them in raids for a combination of reasons.

1. Finding a good player is rare for any class, especially ones that aren't entirely working.
2. Even if a class is fixed it will take quite a while before the viability is widely known.
3. The Warmane/Molten community is good at believing old news, real or not, and ignoring anything else.
   
   • A good example would be the current state of resilience, as perceived by players.
4. A lot of people choose a class based on how well they have seen it preform, so Rogues are Ferals continue to be rare.
   
   • Just look at how popular Rets and Hunters have gotten.

PS: Combat Rogues bring an additional 4% physical damage buff to the raid, the only other way you'll see this buff is by bringing an Arms Warrior. You'd think Warriors in general would use Sunder Armor, but they don't, and Rogues *can* bring this as well. Ferals on the other hand have some nice buffs, but they're easily replaced by a bear (or an Arms Warrior, even though that would be even rarer) + a boomkin.

The amount of exceptional players is quite low at the moment, as said by you guys it's quite hard to find a good feral and/or a good combat rogue. I'd like to point out that I prefer a Combat rogue over an Assassination rogue because they bring that 4% increased physical damage buff which can only be replaced by an Arms Warrior (eeeh) and because when both kinds of rogues have an equal or similar gear level a Combat Rogue can perform as good if not better than an Assassination Rogue (At the end of the day, the difference is made by how hard they try to bring out those numbers).

That's all I've got to say about this topic, just to make things a bit clear I'll give my opinion regarding exceptional players. What's an exceptional player?
First of all, an exceptional player isn't just someone who can pull the biggest numbers, but they certainly pull those high numbers most of the time.
They are also good people to hang out with, they're friendly but they also call things out when it's absolutely necessary.
They won't ignore raid-mechanics just to get those high numbers, they also do their best on making a fight as easy as possible.
And lastly, they're always willing to improve, it's probably the best thing they have because a lot of players who have reached endgame stop caring that much about their perform and just continue doing the same and again and against... it becomes a routine.

TL;DR; The abilities we're talking about are http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=29859 which is a talent from the Arms tree for Warriors and http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=58683 which is also a talent from the Combat tree for Rogues.

[Sixtyninee]

First of all, an exceptional player isn't just someone who can pull the biggest numbers, but they certainly pull those high numbers most of the time.
They are also good people to hang out with, they're friendly but they also call things out when it's absolutely necessary.
They won't ignore raid-mechanics just to get those high numbers, they also do their best on making a fight as easy as possible.
And lastly, they're always willing to improve, it's probably the best thing they have because a lot of players who have reached endgame stop caring that much about their perform and just continue doing the same and again and against... it becomes a routine.

I agree. Too bad you can't fill a 25 man with that kind of people anymore.

[Dongwise]

lol Aurora brings a rogue to main every week if I log on. The only reason you haven't seen one lately is because I went inactive for a few months because of football season but I'm back now. From Rarl and James before me, Aurora has never been afraid of the rogue. They've been selective to be sure but if there's a quality rogue they bring it. I'm sure Aurora has more kills with a rogue on it than any other guild on Molten.

In fact, Aurora took me in as a main rogue and I had zero alts to offer. Others vouched for me and they took a chance and within a month I had a permanent spot in our main runs and this was over 2 years ago. Fast-forward to today and I have god knows how many LoD and RS kills from pre and post-crash

There's no secret to my play, I simply chose the class and refused to roll another when people told me(back in 2012 when I made it) that rogues weren't endgame material. I maximized my abilities and play and learned as much about the class as I could. I talked to rogues that were better than me and where I strived to be as a player and I bugged the **** out of them learning all I could. In turn I've taught a whole lot of people how to play rogue on Ragnaros and while some have stuck around the simple fact is it's still a class you can't slack off in and one that doesn't show real returns until very high gear levels(people get that artificially inflated point around 6k gs but it dives after until you get close to bis) so people just get tired of being rejected for raids and roll a class that gets them an invite.

I'm capable of topping meters for Aurora's main run on any boss from Marrow to PP and above all, I come with raid awareness and a mindset of getting things done. I wasn't all that good when I first started in Aurora either, I'd only spent a couple months pve raiding the rogue really(spent the previous time as pure pvp) but they stuck with me and kept inviting me and I kept improving(still something I try to do even now). If you have rogues that are putting forth that same kind of effort don't be stupid and keep them out of raids. Get them geared and add a useful member.

The point of that mess above is that I don't consider myself a special player. I either discovered how to do certain things on my own or I just had people teach me and I found a place where I could work on my rogue a few times a week. Plenty of people should be capable of being good at the class if they're just given time to develop their abilities and not instantly slammed as "not worth it" by dumb GMs who don't know what good rogues can do in a raid these days(if you're not a warr with SM the answer is poop all over your dps). Besides, don't kid yourselves into thinking you're always bringing your 18 best dps each time you go to raid, you're always carrying someone's crappy, undergeared alt and ignoring their dps so why not just let a rogue get started?

[Sixtyninee]

lol Aurora brings a rogue to main every week if I log on. The only reason you haven't seen one lately is because I went inactive for a few months because of football season but I'm back now. From Rarl and James before me, Aurora has never been afraid of the rogue. They've been selective to be sure but if there's a quality rogue they bring it. I'm sure Aurora has more kills with a rogue on it than any other guild on Molten.

In fact, Aurora took me in as a main rogue and I had zero alts to offer. Others vouched for me and they took a chance and within a month I had a permanent spot in our main runs and this was over 2 years ago. Fast-forward to today and I have god knows how many LoD and RS kills from pre and post-crash

There's no secret to my play, I simply chose the class and refused to roll another when people told me(back in 2012 when I made it) that rogues weren't endgame material. I maximized my abilities and play and learned as much about the class as I could. I talked to rogues that were better than me and where I strived to be as a player and I bugged the **** out of them learning all I could. In turn I've taught a whole lot of people how to play rogue on Ragnaros and while some have stuck around the simple fact is it's still a class you can't slack off in and one that doesn't show real returns until very high gear levels(people get that artificially inflated point around 6k gs but it dives after until you get close to bis) so people just get tired of being rejected for raids and roll a class that gets them an invite.

I'm capable of topping meters for Aurora's main run on any boss from Marrow to PP and above all, I come with raid awareness and a mindset of getting things done. I wasn't all that good when I first started in Aurora either, I'd only spent a couple months pve raiding the rogue really(spent the previous time as pure pvp) but they stuck with me and kept inviting me and I kept improving(still something I try to do even now). If you have rogues that are putting forth that same kind of effort don't be stupid and keep them out of raids. Get them geared and add a useful member.

The point of that mess above is that I don't consider myself a special player. I either discovered how to do certain things on my own or I just had people teach me and I found a place where I could work on my rogue a few times a week. Plenty of people should be capable of being good at the class if they're just given time to develop their abilities and not instantly slammed as "not worth it" by dumb GMs who don't know what good rogues can do in a raid these days(if you're not a warr with SM the answer is poop all over your dps). Besides, don't kid yourselves into thinking you're always bringing your 18 best dps each time you go to raid, you're always carrying someone's crappy, undergeared alt and ignoring their dps so why not just let a rogue get started?

I'm confused, are you trying to sell yourself? Prostitution isn't allowed here.

But seriously, yes I know you're one of the best rogues I've seen on here. However, I don't rank people so I'll just say you're in that group of people who know how to play.

[DarkenedHue]

A solid combat rogue is always going to hold his own in DPS against the other melee. On top of that, they're also typically the best source of the +4% physical damage debuff. I'd venture to say that both a combat rogue and feral Druid (though admittedly the Druid could just be a bear tank) are essential components of a raid looking to maximize its DPS output.

Another neat perk of combat rogues that literally no one knows about is the fact their blade-twisting talent applies a daze to boss targets. While bosses obviously aren't actually slowed, this does indeed buff some spells like Heroic Strike and Steady Shot which gain damage from their target being dazed. This is a bug because bosses shouldn't have the daze debuff apply to them at all, but it is what it is.

[angrylol]

It comes down to this:
Sindragosa and Lich King is easier done with ranged DPS.
It is hard to find melee who can damage and look at damn defile timer. But rangeds just spread out and its not that bad.
Sindragosa last phase, more rangeds, quicker it goes.
Lich king last phase
Just maximise RDPS, don't move don't have to worry about melees to eat Viles and die or spreading Defile.
This is why 4-5 melees to get essential buffs.

Explained.

[Sixtyninee]

Another neat perk of combat rogues that literally no one knows about is the fact their blade-twisting talent applies a daze to boss targets. While bosses obviously aren't actually slowed, this does indeed buff some spells like Heroic Strike and Steady Shot which gain damage from their target being dazed.

Good point, I forgot about that. But a frost DK should give that as well, another hard to replace class/spec combo.

[Drakantas]

lol Aurora brings a rogue to main every week if I log on. The only reason you haven't seen one lately is because I went inactive for a few months because of football season but I'm back now. From Rarl and James before me, Aurora has never been afraid of the rogue. They've been selective to be sure but if there's a quality rogue they bring it. I'm sure Aurora has more kills with a rogue on it than any other guild on Molten.

In fact, Aurora took me in as a main rogue and I had zero alts to offer. Others vouched for me and they took a chance and within a month I had a permanent spot in our main runs and this was over 2 years ago. Fast-forward to today and I have god knows how many LoD and RS kills from pre and post-crash

There's no secret to my play, I simply chose the class and refused to roll another when people told me(back in 2012 when I made it) that rogues weren't endgame material. I maximized my abilities and play and learned as much about the class as I could. I talked to rogues that were better than me and where I strived to be as a player and I bugged the **** out of them learning all I could. In turn I've taught a whole lot of people how to play rogue on Ragnaros and while some have stuck around the simple fact is it's still a class you can't slack off in and one that doesn't show real returns until very high gear levels(people get that artificially inflated point around 6k gs but it dives after until you get close to bis) so people just get tired of being rejected for raids and roll a class that gets them an invite.

I'm capable of topping meters for Aurora's main run on any boss from Marrow to PP and above all, I come with raid awareness and a mindset of getting things done. I wasn't all that good when I first started in Aurora either, I'd only spent a couple months pve raiding the rogue really(spent the previous time as pure pvp) but they stuck with me and kept inviting me and I kept improving(still something I try to do even now). If you have rogues that are putting forth that same kind of effort don't be stupid and keep them out of raids. Get them geared and add a useful member.

The point of that mess above is that I don't consider myself a special player. I either discovered how to do certain things on my own or I just had people teach me and I found a place where I could work on my rogue a few times a week. Plenty of people should be capable of being good at the class if they're just given time to develop their abilities and not instantly slammed as "not worth it" by dumb GMs who don't know what good rogues can do in a raid these days(if you're not a warr with SM the answer is poop all over your dps). Besides, don't kid yourselves into thinking you're always bringing your 18 best dps each time you go to raid, you're always carrying someone's crappy, undergeared alt and ignoring their dps so why not just let a rogue get started?

As said some previous posts before, it's 1 out of 1000 that has a personality as described. In the end, it's really hard to find a motivated player eager of doing no matter it's gear. Something that I forgot to mention is that it applies to all kinds of classes and both factions, you don't easily get those guys in your guild.
Are you gay btw? I mean gaybraham Kappa

[Sixtyninee]

As said some previous posts before, it's 1 out of 1000 that has a personality as described. In the end, it's really hard to find a motivated player eager of doing no matter it's gear. Something that I forgot to mention is that it applies to all kinds of classes and both factions, you don't easily get those guys in your guild.
Are you gay btw? I mean gaybraham Kappa

He is, indeed, gay

Spoiler: Show

braham

[DarkenedHue]

Good point, I forgot about that. But a frost DK should give that as well, another hard to replace class/spec combo.

The effect that buffs Heroic Strike/Steady Shot is specific to dazes, and not other kinds of slows. So stuff like concussive shot and whatnot. Combat rogues are to my knowledge the only spec that provides that debuff passively, without messing up their rotation.

[Lynea]

Interesting. The OP asks about the hate on rogues and ferals, when they are actually viable dps when the person knows how to play them. Doesn't bother to mention the other garbage class/spec that actually still maintains its unviable state: Enhancement Shamans.

[Fluffybully]

It comes down to this:
Sindragosa and Lich King is easier done with ranged DPS.
It is hard to find melee who can damage and look at damn defile timer. But rangeds just spread out and its not that bad.
Sindragosa last phase, more rangeds, quicker it goes.
Lich king last phase
Just maximise RDPS, don't move don't have to worry about melees to eat Viles and die or spreading Defile.
This is why 4-5 melees to get essential buffs.

Explained.

No it's not hard. Whenever you're mdps or rdps, if u can't pay attention for at least 15 mins at a boss fight u shouldn't join the raid in the 1st place. The problem is in the officers who don't punish those who're slacking.
MDPS can do DPS on sindragosa just as good as RDPS can + I've never seen her getting enraged so that's a BS statement
LK last phase same as above... u got 15 mins to kill him with a 30% buff i mean c'mon lol
And those're just 2 bosses outa how many? The only boss that I could think of getting more RDPS that mdps would be BPC for ICC.

Gaybraham and Equilibrium are the only 2 rogues that I know and're gud. But still why bring only 1 rogue to the raid and not 2-3? This always bothered me in both radiance and in Epic(tho epic did sometimes go with 2 rogues) as I wanted a lot of times to DPS race and at the same time do mechanics properly w/o dying with another rogue like Gaybraham for example(i play better when there're 2 rogues cuz of competition and by that I keep improving till there's nothing left to improve), but only one of us got in the raid so meh..

So ye.. the only 2 rogues I know that they're good but some bad rogues want to become better as well, like smoq.. havin a baddie and a good one in teh same raid so that the bad one can compare dem stats (hits etc..) with the good one. Helps a lot at improving some1 + he can get tips at the same time(no having tank and spank bosses from ToC is worthless. bossess where target switches and moving is involved're the best for that).

I know that Aurora does indeed get at least u in the raid gaybraham but why only u 1 rogue and not a 2nd one? Cuz I'm pretty sure u'd do better with a 2nd one being present.. so why why only 1 rogue when raid DPS and enrage timers ain't the problem also telling me that not getting more than 1 due to buffs it brings but neither do 4 hunts bring 4 buffs to the raid right so that's BS .. still got no answer on that

[DarkenedHue]

Because once all raid buffs are covered, there's not much else to be had from an additional rogue. Other than the DPS, obviously, but that's an area where other classes can do just as well, while bringing additional utility.

There's more benefit to stacking hunters because of how furious howl works. Putting two hunters in a grp means near 100% furious howl uptime for that group, so if you have 6 melee, you can divide them into two "melee" groups with 2 hunters each in them. Furious howl isn't supposed to buff the party at all, but the way it does so currently favors having more hunters. That, and the fact that Hunters also offer valuable utility like tranquilizing ****s, distracting shot to kite an enrage, and DPS during LK's transition.