10 Man Naxx vs 25 Man Naxx Boss HP

[Lestat3699]

imo
on 10 man you shouldnt rely so much on your raidcomp,
so you can get some gear before going to 25 mans,
but 10 man atm might be a bit overtuned for this one

Here we will most likely do 25 man to gear up for 10man...well thats a nice logic...hope it will apply to ICC as well cuz RIP.

[yairomii]

Good topic, they should take a look at it and adjust hp, so that 25 is harder than 10, not the other way around.

[smille]

Very good topic.

Btw, people who are saying, 10 man raids are harder than 25 man raids.


http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier10_25
H: The Lich King (25) Mar 26, 2010 21:28

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/eu/...ting.tier10_10
H: The Lich King (10) Mar 3, 2010 09:02


The same goes to T9 and sadly i cant look up T8. But as u can see, 25 should be a lot harder, not the other way around. The devs really should fix that

[linkoynn]

Its far more easier to find 10 competent people, that know how to play and will coordinate at higher lvl than 25 ppl, hence why 25 mans are "harder ".In 25 mans u have higher margin of error, ppl dying is not exactly problem or unsual thing, not everyone performs at the same lvl, in fact if everyone would perform at the same lvl 25mans would be walk in the park, but u always get those 30% of the dpsers that are way below avarage or 2 healers that slack, someone is not min-maxing yet u are still able to clear 25mans.In 10 mans its much more simple in terms of coordination and u can actually hand pick ppl that CAN play their classes and not just LF fillers for the raid that will perfom poorly.Continuations and such are also harder for 25mans.
In conclusion 25 mans were always "hard" because 25man, they werent even hard they were "slow". But in terms of min-maxing 10 mans required more.

[BRETTDESZORNS]

btw
lets have a look on a pure dps race boss
Ultraxion:
25m hc 276000000 HP
2 Tank ~25k dps
5 Healers
6 Minutes Enrage
= 18 DPS with an average dps of 39815 is needed.

10 Man 85000000 HP
2 Tank ~25k dps
3 Healer
= 5 DPS with an average dps of 36667 DPS


so roughly 8% more damage by a DPS is needed in 25 man

Patchwerk takes ~4.3k DPS per Damage Dealer in 10 Man ( 2 Tanks = ~2kdps and 6 DPS )
10,807,375 - (4000*360) = 9367375 / 6 = 1561229,1666666666666666666666667 / 360 = 4336,7476851851851851851851851852


in 25 Man he takes ~4.1k DPS per Damage Dealer ( 3 Tanks = ~2kdps and 16dps )
26077150 - ( 6000 * 360 ) = 23917150 / 16 = 1494821,875 = 4152,2829861111111111111111111111



When you consider you dont have all of Raidbuffs/debuffs in 10 Man,
8% more damage in 25 man is a more reasonable number.
But you have to deal 4% more Damage in 10 Man atm
Which is ridicolous, makes 25 Man so much easier.
Please consider adjusting 10 Man Boss HPs to a more reasonable number than it is now.
Maybe take something around 9.5 Million for Patchwerk so you have to deal ~8% Damage more in 25 Mans.


Edit:
@linkoynn:
so you think every maybe top100 guild has 30% slackers in their roster?
What the **** are you talking about?

Maybe this "10 man is almost as hard as 25 man" could be the truth on Past WOTLK Content.

BUT
Why are there less valuable items in Wotlk content dropping from 10 mans?
Because you have to get your good gear from 25mans before you get to clear the 25mans?
Thats a questionable reason.

[Oldozz]

Patchwork has 8.5 M HP in 10m right now. It is perfectly balanced considering we are not running on a 3.0 server but a 3.3.5. All the bosses are killable.

[jvsm1996]

I can't understand why are you thinking that 10 man needs to be harder than 25 man. Think of the small PvE guilds... doing this will likely extinct them, because they won't be able to progress through 10 man due to lack of better equipments and 25 man due to lack of players.

My guild is a pure brazilian guild, so we don't have many players (at least yet) for a full 25 man raid. But we have enough players interested in PvE to invest in 10 man raids. The thing is: if 10 man is harder than 25 man, would be wiser to go 25 man first and then go 10 man after getting better equipments. But without players, we can't do it, so we'd need to go PUGs... and when PUGs will be in a good state to kill the bosses? After 1 month? Or even 2? I wouldn't like to wait this long to begin to do raids with my guild (beyond the wait time for everybody to level to 80).

In my opinion, requiring 4k DPS in 10 man and 4.5k in 25 man (or slightly more) it's the best option for everybody.

[BRETTDESZORNS]

Patchwork has 8.5 M HP in 10m right now. It is perfectly balanced considering we are not running on a 3.0 server but a 3.3.5. All the bosses are killable.

ah ok

havent checked it yesterday then its fine

so youve killed him with 8,5m hp yesterday?
just for my interest

[kupeczka]

I can't understand why are you thinking that 10 man needs to be harder than 25 man. Think of the small PvE guilds... doing this will likely extinct them, because they won't be able to progress through 10 man due to lack of better equipments and 25 man due to lack of players.

My guild is a pure brazilian guild, so we don't have many players (at least yet) for a full 25 man raid. But we have enough players interested in PvE to invest in 10 man raids. The thing is: if 10 man is harder than 25 man, would be wiser to go 25 man first and then go 10 man after getting better equipments. But without players, we can't do it, so we'd need to go PUGs... and when PUGs will be in a good state to kill the bosses? After 1 month? Or even 2? I wouldn't like to wait this long to begin to do raids with my guild (beyond the wait time for everybody to level to 80).

In my opinion, requiring 4k DPS in 10 man and 4.5k in 25 man (or slightly more) it's the best option for everybody.

Right now, you need around 4.4k or something like this to do naxx 10 ( after patchwerk little nerf). I mean from every dps in the raid. Not just top ones. Did you even tested it ? 25k-30+k dps on whole raid is ok.

[Vekishawow]

Disclaimer: Please read the whole post carefully before replying! I'm not criticizing the fact that boss HP is being scaled. I'm strictly discussing the relative amount of scaling in 10 man vs 25 man.


Retail 10-Man Patchwerk HP: 4,322,950
Retail 10-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 2058 DPS/Person
Lord 10-Man Patchwerk HP: 10,807,375
Lord 10-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 5146 DPS/Person

For 25 man, assuming 2 tanks, 6 healers, and 17 DPS:

Retail 25-Man Patchwerk HP: 13,038,575
Retail 25-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 2414 DPS/Person
Lord 25-Man Patchwerk HP: 26,077,150
Lord 25-Man Patchwerk DPS requirement/Person: 4829 DPS/Person
!

so ur saying that pulling 5146 dps is imposible?? ur correct about scale off 25m and 10m but you know its f*** hard to get 25 people that know how to play , if you cant pull 5146 dps with pre raid bis gear you are bad end of story. coz im pretty sure decent/skilled people will be pulling 5.5-6k+ dps for sure with some classes with pre raid bis gear. so stop crying there are proffs , eoh gear , craft items , rep gear and with that gear and right itemization you will be doing 1k+ dps than on ptr atm for sure
update didn't see it already got nerfed too bad , seeing every1 do 5.1k+ dps would mean ur raiding with right people

[Hazeck]

so ur saying that pulling 5146 dps is imposible?? ur correct about scale off 25m and 10m but you know its f*** hard to get 25 people that know how to play , if you cant pull 5146 dps with pre raid bis gear you are bad end of story. coz im pretty sure decent/skilled people will be pulling 5.5-6k+ dps for sure with some classes with pre raid bis gear. so stop crying there are proffs , eoh gear , craft items , rep gear and with that gear and right itemization you will be doing 1k+ dps than on ptr atm for sure

I didn't say that 5146 dps is impossible. As I said in my disclaimer, I am strictly speaking to the relative DPS requirements in 10 man vs 25 man raids. I wasn't speaking about the possibility of downing the boss. That was never in question in my mind. The question was about whether or not it made sense to require more DPS per person in a 10 man raid than a 25 man raid. Personally, that doesn't make any sense in my mind and I am happy to learn that Patchwerk HP has been reduced from the 10.8 million number it had last week down to 8.6 mil. It now seems correct to me in the sense of 25 man DPS requirement compared to 10 man DPS requirement.

I notice the similar improvements have been made for Anub'Rekhan in 25-man Naxx, who is now 250% greater HP from retail rather than 100% greater HP from retail he had last week. This means at similar DPS levels, it will take longer to kill Anub'Rekhan in 25 man than in 10-man. When you correct for the fact that damage dealers naturally do more DPS in 25 mans, the relative difficulty seems correct now.

I'm glad to see the developers are making these changes. It speaks well to the balancing of the raid content on the server going forward that they are also thinking about such things.

[Vekishawow]

I just don't want raids(NAXX) geting nerfed to blizzlike lvl coz then whole naxx is joke really , and some people are so stubborn and cant accept that they lack their class/skill knowledge ( speaking of you people that are pulling -4k dps on ptr atm in 10m) so they think its about raid difficulty while they wont bother trying to improve their class/skill knowledge

[Vekishawow]

I didn't say that 5146 dps is impossible. As I said in my disclaimer, I am strictly speaking to the relative DPS requirements in 10 man vs 25 man raids. I wasn't speaking about the possibility of downing the boss. That was never in question in my mind. The question was about whether or not it made sense to require more DPS per person in a 10 man raid than a 25 man raid. Personally, that doesn't make any sense in my mind and I am happy to learn that Patchwerk HP has been reduced from the 10.8 million number it had last week down to 8.6 mil. It now seems correct to me in the sense of 25 man DPS requirement compared to 10 man DPS requirement.

I notice the similar improvements have been made for Anub'Rekhan in 25-man Naxx, who is now 250% greater HP from retail rather than 100% greater HP from retail he had last week. This means at similar DPS levels, it will take longer to kill Anub'Rekhan in 25 man than in 10-man. When you correct for the fact that damage dealers naturally do more DPS in 25 mans, the relative difficulty seems correct now.

I'm glad to see the developers are making these changes. It speaks well to the balancing of the raid content on the server going forward that they are also thinking about such things.

id really like to see similar raid difficulty in 10m and 25m like 25m should be always harder? simply higher chance of some1 ****ing up on mechanics and gear in 25 is better so yah but from my point of view id like 10m to be challenge as well
boss hp 10m=- -150%
boss hp 25m= -250%
but also buffing autoattack on some bosses makes them impossible like Loatheb

[Hazeck]

Here are the numbers for the bosses I could target from the raid entrance:



You be the judge.

[Russkov]

In terms of PuG's 10-man are harder than 25-man because you can have a higher "*****ness" % per player on a raid, but Blizzard made 10-man easier than 25-man. It's elitist and will only benefit big guilds if 10-mans are harder than 25.