WotLK BiS HOLY Paladin pre-naxx thread?

[Zaraisme]

Where is it then?:p

[Lynea]

Stack mp5, crit and int until you're mana efficient, then haste. There is no such list made for that set of content. I trust you can figure out which items would be good for you.

[Sarth]

Also 51/0/20 spec works really well for low gear since it gives you 8% crit

[lenthas]

Also 51/0/20 spec works really well for low gear since it gives you 8% crit

I'd say 51/5/15, I can't imagine what you get for 5 extra points in ret that surpasses free 5% healing bonus.

[Lynea]

I'd say 51/5/15, I can't imagine what you get for 5 extra points in ret that surpasses free 5% healing bonus.

Spec as you like, your preference. You could spec 71/0/0 if you wanted to and if it worked for you. Preference is besides the point, which the point he was making is that a sub-ret build will be better for lower geared holydins. You're just nitpicking that, but I'll humor you.

Build you're suggesting -> http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sxAztM0sVu0tgdxZVcbx
Build he's suggesting -> http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sxAztM0sVu0tgdZVcbxbh

Build I'd suggest -> http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#sxAztM0sVu0tgdbZVcbx0h

Either way, talents don't have much to do with what the OP was asking for, nor do I know if they would find that helpful, considering these specs can already be found in the relevant guides.

[rikaya]

Just found this thread, gonna add some stuff.

Spoiler: Show

@offtopic: 51/5/15 is the way to go, if you have low gear or are looking at early Naxx10 stages.
Changes:
2/2 Imp. LoH is your panic button and/or big tank cd. Just take the one point out of Enlightened Judgements - afa you'll be melee-hitting most of the time for regen anyways.
5/5 Divinity is way stronger than 2/5 Divinity+Sanctity for 3% crit.
Imp. BoM / Judgement choose whatever. Go Might for heroics.
-> but yeah. preference . simply up to you and your playstyle

btt:
click me
Found this very helpful as a short compendium of what is dropping where.

The rating for "best option" is most of the time right.
Trinkets are up to you/your playstyle.
Recommend going JC for a stupidly strong trinket
+ start saving a lot to either buy DMC ingame (bought it for 10,5k H) or from the item shop.
and *snap* there is your big mana pool

[Lynea]

First,

Either way, talents don't have much to do with what the OP was asking for, nor do I know if they would find that helpful, considering these specs can already be found in the relevant guides.

Second,

2/2 Imp. LoH is your panic button and/or big tank cd. Just take the one point out of Enlightened Judgements - afa you'll be melee-hitting most of the time for regen anyways.

There is plenty of encounters that standing near the boss can cause you problems. You should not always be doing it. And why would you be willing to nerf your own CD? When you're low geared, dropping defensive value off of a CD is unacceptable. 10% is HUGE.

Third,

5/5 Divinity is way stronger than 2/5 Divinity+Sanctity for 3% crit.
[...]
-> but yeah. preference . simply up to you and your playstyle

You claim it's the way to go for someone with low gear, but then you actively choose to spec out of mana efficiency. That makes absolutely no sense.

Fourth,

Recommend going JC for a stupidly strong trinket

It's not as strong as you make it out to be, but yes, the Sapphire Owl is a nice pre-raid trinket.

Lastly, nice necro.

[Beanlord]

Not that I'm all that experienced in raiding relevant Naxx content, but I'm pretty sure that a holy pala spec will be mostly using FoL at that point. The way I'd recommend gear choices would be to get +haste items until you get your FoL to a relatively fast cast time and stack regen (+crit +mp5) afterwards. As for the spec I'd most definitely go for a deep prot subspec. That would just be a no-brainer considering the immense damage reduction you and the raid get (6% and 20% respectively). Not to mention the extra 11% extra healing. Another thing I'd like to say would be to use Glyph of Seal of Light. The reason is because you won't be spending a lot of mana on Holy Light and FoL barely costs anything so you might as well get another 5% healing. And if you ever run into some mana issues you can swap your seals for a while and then switch back.

P.S. As I said don't hold me to my words, I've never raided relevant Naxx, I have experienced relevant Ulduar (on Lord) and a LOT of experience on relevant ICC progression though. Actual ICC progression, as in the whole raid had togc gear, nothing from ICC, other than one trash BoE.

[rikaya]

And why would you be willing to nerf your own CD? When you're low geared, dropping defensive value off of a CD is unacceptable. 10% is HUGE.

Wtf? Re-read my post. For lowgear I'd go with 2/2 LoH. 51/5/15
You only have 1 spare point to distribute, so take it out of Enlightened Judgements and go with 2/2 Imp LoH.

There is plenty of encounters that standing near the boss can cause you problems. You should not always be doing it.

There is patch, grobbulus, heigan, kt where you possibly can't stand melee range. 15yd range is far enough for every other encounter.
Drop the point and put it in Imp LoH. srsly
For example in ToGC you need 3/3 Improved Concentration Aura, aka you drop the 2 Points from Blessed Hands and go with 1/2 Enlightened Judgements to compensate. This way you still got 2/2 Divine Guardian.

You claim it's the way to go for someone with low gear, but then you actively choose to spec out of mana efficiency. That makes absolutely no sense.

Going for throughput in early gear stages doesn't mean to fully gem for mp5 because the regen is so much better, if you don't heal **** at the same time.
3% Crit is not worth the 3% Healing. Go with Divinity

It's not as strong as you make it out to be, but yes, the Sapphire Owl is a nice pre-raid trinket.

Not like 74 Int on a single trinket and more than 10% regain off your manapool on-use-effect (20k pool assumed with low gear and buffs) wouldn't be op. "Nice pre-raid trinket." wth what else do you want to go for? sapphiron trinket with 900mana regain?
loosing 74 int which not only empowers plea regain but also every other important stat.

Another thing I'd like to say would be to use Glyph of Seal of Light. The reason is because you won't be spending a lot of mana on Holy Light and FoL barely costs anything so you might as well get another 5% healing.

Just checked last OS25 +3. 9min fight. (Setting this as an example to show its strength:) 42k mana regained from Seal of Wisdom, 36k off Divine Plea (timed with dmc). Seal of Light (including glyph) is a bad pve choice sorry..

[Lynea]

Wtf? Re-read my post. For lowgear I'd go with 2/2 LoH. 51/5/15
You only have 1 spare point to distribute, so take it out of Enlightened Judgements and go with 2/2 Imp LoH.

I misunderstood.

There is patch, grobbulus, heigan, kt where you possibly can't stand melee range. 15yd range is far enough for every other encounter.
Drop the point and put it in Imp LoH. srsly
For example in ToGC you need 3/3 Improved Concentration Aura, aka you drop the 2 Points from Blessed Hands and go with 1/2 Enlightened Judgements to compensate. This way you still got 2/2 Divine Guardian.

Yes, 15yds is fine. But you suggested that a Holydin should, and I quote, "you'll be melee-hitting most of the time for regen anyways", when that's not entirely true, and a bad thing to suggest on plenty bosses.

Going for throughput in early gear stages doesn't mean to fully gem for mp5 because the regen is so much better, if you don't heal **** at the same time.
3% Crit is not worth the 3% Healing. Go with Divinity

Who said anything about mp5? You do know mp5 is not your only mana efficiency stat, right? Crit is throughput AND efficiency. Speccing out of efficiency for throughput when you're in pre-raid gear is unwise. An OOM healer does NO healing.

Not like 74 Int on a single trinket and more than 10% regain off your manapool on-use-effect (20k pool assumed with low gear and buffs) wouldn't be op. "Nice pre-raid trinket." wth what else do you want to go for? sapphiron trinket with 900mana regain?
loosing 74 int which not only empowers plea regain but also every other important stat.

I find it amusing that you're going on about mana efficiency, but just on the last quote you were going on about how you should spec into throughput, not mana efficiency.
Anyway, even if it were the best trinket available, that doesn't make it "stupidly strong". There are plenty of trinkets available that are worth noting. I also don't understand why you want to compare a 5min CD to something that has a much shorter ICD, and make the implication that it's bad. That's just bad form.
But I guess you want me to list off decent trinkets? Ok, fine then, I'll do it for the benefit of the OP.
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40532
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40258
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=37835
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44255

The latter of the two are even obtainable without even touching a raid!

Just checked last OS25 +3. 9min fight. (Setting this as an example to show its strength:) 42k mana regained from Seal of Wisdom, 36k off Divine Plea (timed with dmc). Seal of Light (including glyph) is a bad pve choice sorry..

You do realize that you don't have to glyph SoW to get mana back from using it, right? But you also want to spec for % increased healing, but not glyph for it. It's also interesting that you say it's a 9min fight, which would put it 1min short of using the JC trinket a second time. Do you realize how superior that makes other efficiency trinkets to it?

[Sixtyninee]

For example in ToGC you need 3/3 Improved Concentration Aura

And why is this?

[Beanlord]

and why is this?

because oh my god do not ever let a ****ing moonkin get even a 0.1 second delay on their wrath.

@rikaya
One piece of advice. Never spec that talent, unless:
1. You have a try-harding arcane mage that runs 3/5 arcane stability in something irrelevant like a dungeon.
2. You want to pvp.

[rikaya]

Yes, 15yds is fine. But you suggested that a Holydin should, and I quote, "you'll be melee-hitting most of the time for regen anyways", when that's not entirely true, and a bad thing to suggest on plenty bosses.

8/12 Encounters in naxx, almost every rnd heroic, also maly and OS allow you to melee-hit. So i guess that counts as "most of the time". (Let's only talk about the already released encounters.)

Crit is throughput AND efficiency. Speccing out of efficiency for throughput when you're in pre-raid gear is unwise. An OOM healer does NO healing.

I guess this comes down to personal preference in the end. I found myself in better shape like that with pre-raid gear. Mostly because the other healers had ****-gear as well and we had rdruids, hymns with manatide. Would personally go for/recommend Divinity.

I find it amusing that you're going on about mana efficiency, but just on the last quote you were going on about how you should spec into throughput, not mana efficiency.

Int is your best stat to get. It gives a higher mana pool (thus boosting your plea, Arcane Torrent, Hymn, Manatide), also spellpower and crit. So, getting Int gives a good balance between through- and output. I think we all agree on that.
Further on to the trinkets:
The http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=42413 is very easy to get. And throughout whole Naxx (especially at early stages) stacking mana is simply the strongest option here. (tear+full int gems)
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44255+http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=42413 are the way to go.
-http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40532 gives mp5, and a merely useless (for pve) effect. Also you have to get to maly first.
-http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=40258 45 icd. This item is pretty damn bad nonetheless it has a lot of sp.

As far as this thread originally was about Pre-Naxx-BiS - let's talk about the ones that actually are pre-naxx.
http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=37835 with either http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=42413 or http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44255 is a good alternative as well (if you don't have one of the two). If you already got http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44255 then get thehttp://wotlk.openwow.com/item=42413 as far as it pushes Int by huge numbers and this combination qualifies as BiS for many encounters (even lategame naxx).

There are plenty of trinkets available that are worth noting. I also don't understand why you want to compare a 5min CD to something that has a much shorter ICD, and make the implication that it's bad. That's just bad form. [...] It's also interesting that you say it's a 9min fight, which would put it 1min short of using the JC trinket a second time. Do you realize how superior that makes other efficiency trinkets to it?

I'm aware that http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=42413's high cd doesn't make it as valuable as it could be on encounters with favorable kill-times.
74 Int is still a huge number and makes the other trinkets (except http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=44255) -looking at the most encounters- inferior, especially if you don't have a huge trinketpool to choose from.

You do realize that you don't have to glyph SoW to get mana back from using it, right?

As far as spamming Holy Light with near-BiS gear is viable, the glyph gets increasingly stronger.
Looking at early gear-stages (if you find yourself in naxx10/rnd heroics) you'll have SoW anyways on, as it's your main mana income.

One piece of advice. Never spec that talent, unless:
1. You have a try-harding arcane mage that runs 3/5 arcane stability in something irrelevant like a dungeon.
2. You want to pvp.

Ulduar:
XT: Tympanic Tantrum
Assembly of Iron: Static Disruption, hardmode Lightning Blast (for ranges outside)
Algalon: every Smash, Black Hole Explosion
Kologarn: Shockwave
Hodir: Biting Cold (esp. in hardmode when dps stack to 3)
Thorim: Chain Lighting, Blizzard (hardmode)
Yogg'Saron: Dark Volley
ToGC:
Beasts: Snobold Vassals as they have in-built russian kick-addon, also Fire Debuff (splash+itself) at Jormungars
Jaraxxus: Mistress of Pain, Fel Lightning
Faction Champs: i guess this one is obvious enough
Twin-Val'kyr: every orb collected

I guess those are reasons enough. Please keep your "advice".


I hope everything mentioned is understandable and reasonable.
rikaya out <3

Ps: Not trying to brag, but my opinions/decisions are mostly based on experience, as far as i raided every WotLK raid progress including few RFs on several private realms as well as retail.

[Beanlord]

You do realise that all caster classes, withouth a single exception have a +70% pushback reduction right? Withouth speccing into imp. Conc aura you already give 35%. By all means tell me why imp.conc aura would be in any way benefitial outside of pvp/some irrelevant dungeons.

Edit: I re-read again and saw you get it for interrupts. Not really needed at all.

[Lynea]

Edit: I re-read again and saw you get it for interrupts. Not really needed at all.

Yeah. I mean, could just pay attention to DBM and stop casting.

As far as spamming Holy Light with near-BiS gear is viable, the glyph gets increasingly stronger.
Looking at early gear-stages (if you find yourself in naxx10/rnd heroics) you'll have SoW anyways on, as it's your main mana income.

Use SoW when you need mana, use SoL when your mana is fine?? More throughput?? Profit...?

Int is your best stat to get.

Nobody said it wasn't?

Ps: Not trying to brag, but my opinions/decisions are mostly based on experience, as far as i raided every WotLK raid progress including few RFs on several private realms as well as retail.

Sorry to inform you, but that doesn't mean jack.