The New Core

[Ikspalii]

To be honest - You're losing all your authority. Donations? I've donated a significant ammount of Euros as well and I don't believe that's the perfect argument to defend yourself; Just because you donated more than X or Y that doesn't necessarily mean you're more aware of the several issues that the server is going through. I wasn't here since day one? You're right. But I'm around since 2011 and I've stayed here offering my support after the so called "moltdown". Changing my tone because I'm pointing out simple facts and questioning some statements? Hold down a second. As far as I've noticed I'm not being disrespectul or unpolite - I've pointed out the issue that there multiple ways of how things are being treated that are NOT right.

So TL;DR for you sir - I, personally, don't give a damn about how much you donated for this server since there are three fundamental points;

1) You donate for this server because you want to.
2) I've donated as well since I have respect for the dedication implemented in this project. But that doesn't necessarily mean I can't make an open statement about how things are being badly treaten right now.
3) I also report "crap" every single time that my time allows me to and that's one of the main reasons why I did this thread. Because I actually CARE about the quality offered in PvE aspects.

So yes - I will keep this tone against your attitude right now.

We just supported the server, i've not said it for no other reason, but im still waiting for the answers on the questions above?

And this other guy under i've never said that i tested the new content, they gave that "honor" to pointless private heros and thats why we are playing on prolly one of the most bugged servers who are known as being "big". So you cry me a river kiddo, will give you a hug if you want one.

[magaginho]

We just supported the server, i've not said it for no other reason, but im still waiting for the answers on the questions above?

And this other guy under i've never said that i tested the new content, they gave that "honor" to pointless private heros and thats why we are playing on prolly one of the most bugged servers who are known as being "big". So you cry me a river kiddo, will give you a hug if you want one.

What questions are you making? The bugs that were around? Yeah, I'm perfectly aware since the scripting was really similar to other servers.

I'm also aware of the several exploits that existed in the time that I joined and I saw them all being fixed time to time and new exploits showing up. Are you really trying to make a solid statement that just because you're here since the beggining you know more than anyone else? No, you don't. Sure you might be called an "elder" but that doesn't invalidate the fact that my voice can be heard as a member of this same community and as a supporter of this project. But bringing the situation to the current state; What's in the past is in the past. What's relevant, right now, it's what happening in the present. If I would share a tear with you about everything that I've seen in the past this forum wouldn't be enough to share all of it.

With this said, what I do care right now is about the answers related to the questions that I posted in my initial post in this same thread. Instead of going all rude like that and make yourself sound important - As a fellow community member - Respect my point of view, respect my doubts, respect my questions and allow the people that are supposed to give answers give them.

[Winki]

1) As for the first quote goes I believe that we're more than aware that there are NOW more bugs than there were before. Several instances and boss mechanics are broken in a point that is almost undoable to achieve any kind of progress.

Several boss mechanics are broken. Mind citing them? Everything up until Ulduar (and now including Ulduar) is unarguably on a "99%" state, pretty much perfectly enjoyable blizzlike scripts. ToGc has to be polished for its release on Lordaeron and ICC has received a LOT of improvements since it was first released for us, and it will undoubtedly be 99% when it meets Lordaeron. Same goes for RS which stands in the lower priority of the raids as you can clearly notice.

I don't know if the tester guilds are the ones to blame for not reporting this broken mechanics or if it's a core issue itself.

Every single tiny bit of unproper scripting in ICC has been and will continuously be reported with their proper priorities so don't worry about staff and devs acknowledgement of bugs, they are aware of what they should be.

TL;DR; - Ragnaros and Deathwing are suffering bugs that represent an even worst situation that before. An end game instance like RS being broken in the way that it is breaks the game for the end game guilds completely. Several bosses from Icecrown Citadel not working as they should since the implementation of this same core (Examples: Professor Putricide as it is, Valithria, etc.). It was stated that things would be changed. What can I expect now?

Really? Worse situation than before? Did you enjoy being forced to do VDW under 4~ minutes otherwise you'd hit the berserk? Did you enjoy the tankspank trashmobs? Multiple flames on Marrowgar, super fast ticks, nonscripted adds on Lady, bugged threatmeter aswell not reseting once P2 started? Only 1 Vengeful Shade? Meaningless mindcontrol mechanic? 10 minutes on GSB? DBS? Vile Gas on melees at Rotface? Only 1 Vile Gas on 25? Not even gonna mention PP. Bugged Kinetics and Nucleous inside walls? The amazing LoS and pathfinding? Broken DPS of some classes overscaling and doubledipping left and right? Not being able to log back during an encounter if you DC'd or crashed? Maybe you miss killing Ragings with Necrotic Plague, or only having to worry about one of it.

I really don't get your point. This scripting is much better than before. There are only a few things pending fixes (LK, Sindragosa, and Red Ooze on PP, GSB mage), not "several" as you said. And these are major bugs. Of course there are still minor details that again, will be fixed soon. If you know better than me about all the other bosses, please let me know which major bugs are there to be fixed that you're calling "several bosses broken". (PS: Bugs with Rotface, VDW orbs and Unchained magic are very recent and due to another unrelated update, which broke these bosses and some other raids but will be fixed sometime soon too).

What's the matter with RS? If it's not properly scripted, give them some time. There are other raids to script with higher priority. "Before it was better, even tho it was bugged as ****, at least we could do it". Really? I'd rather not have a raid or boss available and wait for its proper script released than killing a halfscripted tankspank crap. Not saying old Halion was tankspank but please, if you've played here before and on retail you know the difference was HUGE. Old Halion was disgusting, I wouldn't say harder or easier, just not how it's supposed to be.

2) I'm bringing up the exploit back. The quote from Proterean himself makes me question several points. I've already found several possible exploits for almost every single boss in Icecrown Citadel. I have two different questions for this;

- Who are the ones that I can consider responsible for this? The Testing Guilds?

If people didn't try exploiting, they wouldn't know. If you did, go ahead and report.

- What happens to this new exploiters? Consequences will happen or should they force their way through the content (that is way too broken) abusing exploits?

If you record and directly report, they will get banned (if they're clearly exploiting).

This are just two of the several questions that pop in my head. I could post several of them but I believe that this topic would not be the right spot for it and since I have respect thowards the dedication and sweat applied in this development I will not do it (at least here).

Also, another solid point - About the "full development support";

WoTLK content has gotten more fixes since Lord's Northrend release than Molten/Warmane old realms ever had. With all on the same core, you can clearly see the whole content getting worked on (ICC for example is much better than before and again, will be fully developed by the time it hits Lord.

All I'm asking here is; How much will Ragnaros and Deathwing suffer with this breaking hotfixes? For how longer will this community (guilds, solo players, casual - Whatever) suffer from this?

Playing here for 6 years and I've seen more progress in 2016 than in all previous years. Instead of thinking things are bad, you should now believe they're actually making this a blizzlike server, which it never was even close to. Just look at what has been done so far and forget a bit about anything after Ulduar (and ignore this last hotfix that broke a few mechanics related to game objects). This new core IS undeniably better than before. I'd estimate 3 months for the whole WoTLK to be 99%, could be even sooner.

Finally, this is what I have to say: Give them TIME. If you can help with reports, do it too.

[magaginho]

Several boss mechanics are broken. Mind citing them? Everything up until Ulduar (and now including Ulduar) is unarguably on a "99%" state, pretty much perfectly enjoyable blizzlike scripts. ToGc has to be polished for its release on Lordaeron and ICC has received a LOT of improvements since it was first released for us, and it will undoubtedly be 99% when it meets Lordaeron. Same goes for RS which stands in the lower priority of the raids as you can clearly notice.

Ulduar is not unarguably 99% state. Several mechanics are broken such as vehicles getting dazed, Freya is not working as intended and several other mechanics. You pointed out one good thing: I have NO DOUBTS that once ICC hits Lordaeron it will be almost perfect. Why? Because right now the feeling that I have as a Ragnaros player is that Deathwing and Ragnaros were turned into testing dummies in order to make that possibility, that you stated, real. I have no doubts, at all, that what you said will happen. But how much time will we wait? 8 months until the release of ICC in Lordaeron?

Every single tiny bit of unproper scripting in ICC has been and will continuously be reported with their proper priorities so don't worry about staff and devs acknowledgement of bugs, they are aware of what they should be.

Huh uh. And after being reported a hotfix is implemented bringing even more broken things. If you don't believe me go ask every other player from Ragnaros or Deathwing. You'll be surprised with the feedbacks.

Really? Worse situation than before? Did you enjoy being forced to do VDW under 4~ minutes otherwise you'd hit the berserk? Did you enjoy the tankspank trashmobs? Multiple flames on Marrowgar, super fast ticks, nonscripted adds on Lady, bugged threatmeter aswell not reseting once P2 started? Only 1 Vengeful Shade? Meaningless mindcontrol mechanic? 10 minutes on GSB? DBS? Vile Gas on melees at Rotface? Only 1 Vile Gas on 25? Not even gonna mention PP. Bugged Kinetics and Nucleous inside walls? The amazing LoS and pathfinding? Broken DPS of some classes overscaling and doubledipping left and right? Not being able to log back during an encounter if you DC'd or crashed? Maybe you miss killing Ragings with Necrotic Plague, or only having to worry about one of it.

I really don't get your point. This scripting is much better than before. There are only a few things pending fixes (LK, Sindragosa, and Red Ooze on PP, GSB mage), not "several" as you said. And these are major bugs. Of course there are still minor details that again, will be fixed soon. If you know better than me about all the other bosses, please let me know which major bugs are there to be fixed that you're calling "several bosses broken". (PS: Bugs with Rotface, VDW orbs and Unchained magic are very recent and due to another unrelated update, which broke these bosses and some other raids but will be fixed sometime soon too).

Yeah, really. Here's the major point that you're not paying attention to: The Old Core allowed you to go through the content in high end game raiding. As it is right now? I challenge you to go through VDW, without the cloud buff working properly, without pushing a ridiculous ammount of healers in order to finish the fight. Yes, it was a quite stressing fight since you had to finish it in four minutes (five minutes maximum) but then again you had clouds working properly and you had that on your side. A Holy Paladin pushing at least 40k HP/s makes wonders.

What's the matter with RS? If it's not properly scripted, give them some time. There are other raids to script with higher priority. "Before it was better, even tho it was bugged as ****, at least we could do it". Really? I'd rather not have a raid or boss available and wait for its proper script released than killing a halfscripted tankspank crap. Not saying old Halion was tankspank but please, if you've played here before and on retail you know the difference was HUGE. Old Halion was disgusting, I wouldn't say harder or easier, just not how it's supposed to be.

Yeah old Halion was disgusting, but then again, was a possible kill. Right now? Right now I see guilds dropping his HP to a ridiculous ammount in order to secure the kill since it's terribly scripted. It's actually WORST than it was. Also - Several reports were done and they were pointed out as poorly explained when attached with several external sources from Tankspot and Rank 1 guilds from WOTLK. So what's the point of even bothering reporting?

If people didn't try exploiting, they wouldn't know. If you did, go ahead and report.
If you record and directly report, they will get banned (if they're clearly exploiting).

No, this is a lie. Several reports were handled and they were adressed as the staff own fault so people were not banned. Therefore my question is really clear; What will happen this time? Will people be banned or are we going to have another "mea culpa" moment and proceed with blind eyes? 'Cause if it is, I can tell everyone to abuse RS 25 HC at WILL, get their achievements and free pieces of gear. Same treatment for everyone - At least that's what I think it's fair.

WoTLK content has gotten more fixes since Lord's Northrend release than Molten/Warmane old realms ever had. With all on the same core, you can clearly see the whole content getting worked on (ICC for example is much better than before and again, will be fully developed by the time it hits Lord.

We're going back to the point I was stating - Are Deathwing and Ragnaros testing dummies?

Playing here for 6 years and I've seen more progress in 2016 than in all previous years. Instead of thinking things are bad, you should now believe they're actually making this a blizzlike server, which it never was even close to. Just look at what has been done so far and forget a bit about anything after Ulduar (and ignore this last hotfix that broke a few mechanics related to game objects). This new core IS undeniably better than before. I'd estimate 3 months for the whole WoTLK to be 99%, could be even sooner.

Finally, this is what I have to say: Give them TIME. If you can help with reports, do it too.

I give them all the time in the world and that's one of the main reasons why I'm still around. That doesn't clear the fact that I'm still free to question several important points that were stated by two of the top references from the Staff himself. Personally, as it is right now, I can't and I won't even consider that this new core is better than the old core when simple lack of knowledgment about each and single mechanic is the cause for this same situation. Stating that something is poorly explained when you point out a common sense phrase from a tooltip tells me pretty much everything; The person interpreting that tooltip doesn't have the aknowledgment about the mechanics themselves in order to properly understand it. That's why you ask players to test them - But apparently the results weren't good, I assume.

[Winki]

99% isn't exactly 99%, but you know. Vehicles getting dazed should be although annoying, a minor detail part of the "1%".
And yes, Deathwing and Ragnaros, soon to be Icecrown, are sort of big test realms at the moment for Warmane, which also serves well for Lordaeron since its content doesn't need to be rushed in like Icecrown had. PTR had some people and guilds testing content in it, but realistically it's much easier to gather feedback from live realms than the PTR. Many more raids happening and players doing a lot of different things around. If they kept the old core until everything was "scripted" and then released for Icecrown, oh boy they'd have to deal with a lot of crap at the same time. Making little changes overtime was proved to be a better method than releasing big updates at once from past experiences.

So basically Icecrown players get to play on the new core, "test" and report the scripts while also enjoying the better scripting (if you still think the old core was better, I can't do anything about it, I guess it can be subjective as much as I see just too many downsides of the old core), giving the staff an easier time at gathering feedback and applying fixes overtime. That's totally fine for me. Both sides win. Players experience something closer to retail than they were playing before, staff gets better feedback for bugs and applied fixes. PS: Keep in mind I am totally ignoring the latest hotfix related to game objects which broke Sindragosa, Rotface, VDW and possibly Taldaram's Fireballs and of course RS which shouldn't even be open and yes, it was rushed for an early update of the core onto old realms. Just so you know, 2 days before the core update RS had pretty much 10x worse scripting than it does now and they got fixes implemented based on testing a couple of days prior to it. I'm surprised ToGc is in a much better shape than I expected.

The script reports for bosses in general didn't have anything to do with the game objects update which broke the previously said bosses. That's how scripting works. Something you change here might affect another code that had nothing to do with it. It broke VDW portals without it even being touched. That's unfortunate but you shouldn't care about it, it will be fixed. You should care about the update that went live a few days ago fixing Marrowgar flames, Vengeful Shades and Dark Martyrdom, Mind Controlled players, and PP's Malleable Goo on 25hc and the puddles. I haven't tested but I'm pretty sure they've fixed PP's healing from Mutated Plague too (which was meaningless due to healing reductions unproperly affecting it). You should say "well, they're actually fixing things", cause these were changes they did on purpose for these bosses, based on good feedback, not the other hotfix that broke "random" things around.

Sometimes it is hard to "prove" how things should work, I agree, but that's how it is. Not everyone in the staff is an expert that knows every single thing about the game, maybe none of them is. So what? You chose to play here, as everyone else did, and while I agree you may feel like getting your questions answered, try looking at things from another point of view and just accepting the way things are. If you (and I believe you do) want to help, all you can do is keep giving your feedback in a proper manner and I'm sure it will be addressed, eventually. Either for bug reports, exploits, or suggestions at how things are supposed to be done. If the answer is a simple "no, because not" then well, at least you tried, can't do anything about that.

Another thing, they opened the PTR for everyone (and now our big PTR is Icecrown anyways) so it's not "asking for tests" anymore. Players willing to help and report will, and that's it. It's a big deal to forward changes to devs so they actually touch the codes with the purpose of changing things, you can't just read something and trust the report based on a couple of evidences. It has to be done with caution and making sure it is 1000% correct before you change the "core" idea of a boss. Should Abom be susceptible to player spells? Which spells? Well every spell. Healing, cleanses, DK's presences. Proof?

Well you got it. And that was a basic example. There are more complex mechanics with minor details for scripting than this one and every one of them needs all the proof, evidence, reproductions and whatnot before it can be even confirmed. Then you have to go ahead and make it happen with the base coding you got and hope it doesn't demand any other changes (which Malleable Goo needed related to Game Objects, I believe) that might break your other stuff. Meanwhile people think the old outdated core with a crapload of complications and messy coding was better, even with encounters working far from what retail had. Give it time.

[Sixtyninee]

So basically Icecrown players get to play on the new core, "test" and report the scripts while also enjoying the better scripting (if you still think the old core was better, I can't do anything about it, I guess it can be subjective as much as I see just too many downsides of the old core), giving the staff an easier time at gathering feedback and applying fixes overtime. That's totally fine for me.

Your submissiveness intrigues me. However not everyone is interested in being forced into being the test dummy.

[magaginho]

So basically Icecrown players get to play on the new core, "test" and report the scripts while also enjoying the better scripting (if you still think the old core was better, I can't do anything about it, I guess it can be subjective as much as I see just too many downsides of the old core), giving the staff an easier time at gathering feedback and applying fixes overtime. That's totally fine for me. Both sides win.

How can you say that it's both side win situation when you're being forced to go through it and not "invited" to do so?

Another thing, they opened the PTR for everyone (and now our big PTR is Icecrown anyways) so it's not "asking for tests" anymore. Players willing to help and report will, and that's it.

Exactly. Players willing to go there and test are free to go. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to make a 6k total population go through it when you announced that everything would be working properly. Keep in mind I do accept and understand human mistakes and fail/try again attempts but every single hotfix implemented has been introducing even more broken content. That's the main reason why you have PTR - You make sure it works properly and then you make it official. You stated PTR and you did state it right - The ones willing (like I already did) go there and test things in order to report new bugs.

[Winki]

Your submissiveness intrigues me. However not everyone is interested in being forced into being the test dummy.

No one is forced to play in Icecrown, tho. And it's a winwin situation. And if some people are still not interested or think it's actually worse to experience the new core and its updates rather than the old one, welp, don't let the door hit you on your way out. It's the kind of opinion/suggestion not really up to discussion anymore, it's basically "that's how it is cause we found it to be the best way", period.

How can you say that it's both side win situation when you're being forced to go through it and not "invited" to do so?

There's a misunderstanding I think, you were never invited to play here and never will. This server is available to play for free and you can express your feelings and opinions yes, as I've previously stated, but up to a certain point. Read the above.

Exactly. Players willing to go there and test are free to go. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to make a 6k total population go through it when you announced that everything would be working properly. Keep in mind I do accept and understand human mistakes and fail/try again attempts but every single hotfix implemented has been introducing even more broken content. That's the main reason why you have PTR - You make sure it works properly and then you make it official. You stated PTR and you did state it right - The ones willing (like I already did) go there and test things in order to report new bugs.

Oh please. Molten/Warmane had a propaganda of "most complete and scripted and developed content" for years and everyone knows nothing here was close to blizzlike. But now some things are, and they keep getting worked on.

There are ups and downs for everything. Things are done after taking every outcome into account. I'm noy saying I'm 100% correct with my point but they have made a decision and you can't possibly think it is completely nonsensical cause I just told you how it benefits the staff and the players in different ways. "Yeah but I don't want to be used as tester!!!". Many other people do (hence population of the realms) as long as I see improvement and development, which I do notice.

You really think doing ICC and RS like it was before was fun? Was actually "clearing endgame content"? Pretty much every boss was done differently than it should, so many things dude. Even LK broken as it is now is way more enjoyable than it was before. PP isn't even 100% and I'd take this core over the other one just for that encounter alone. Again, I'd rather not have bosses or a raid available instead of running through completely broken content. All of this is subjective tho and I shouldn't even be demonstrating my personal opinion on it. We would have much less feedback and way slower development if the new core was limited to Lordaeron (which won't have content released before it's "99%") and the PTR. For someone asking "how much longer are we gonna suffer with these scripts!?!?" I think you might have some conflicted opinions.

[Kasumii]

Another thing, they opened the PTR for everyone (and now our big PTR is Icecrown anyways) so it's not "asking for tests" anymore. Players willing to help and report will, and that's it. It's a big deal to forward changes to devs so they actually touch the codes with the purpose of changing things, you can't just read something and trust the report based on a couple of evidences. It has to be done with caution and making sure it is 1000% correct before you change the "core" idea of a boss. Should Abom be susceptible to player spells? Which spells? Well every spell. Healing, cleanses, DK's presences. Proof?

Meanwhile, what was at least clearable (even if broken) on the old core is no longer the case. The state of Ragnaros has basically left Ulduar in a better working state than ICC (heroic) at the moment.

ICC had issues before but at least you could clear it without having to bring a full BiS raid into a 10 heroic. Entry level raiding gear for ICC 10 heroic would be roughly 5.6-5.8k. Given the state of just Marrowgar, I find it highly doubtful they'd be able to clear it.

Lack of effort from the community on the PTR is not the best excuse for turning your live production realms into a test pool for hot fix patches. You speak as if we don't understand what's involved in TC or coding the game in general. Please take your assumptions elsewhere cause all your wall of text did (for me at least) was inform me about what I already know from the programming aspect of it. It's not an excuse for making the production realms the unofficial test servers which is a bad practice from a systems management perspective all around.

[magaginho]

No one is forced to play in Icecrown, tho. And it's a winwin situation. And if some people are still not interested or think it's actually worse to experience the new core and its updates rather than the old one, welp, don't let the door hit you on your way out. It's the kind of opinion/suggestion not really up to discussion anymore, it's basically "that's how it is cause we found it to be the best way", period.

Personally I'm not saying that anyone is forced to play in Icecrown. I don't have ANYTHING against the merge. I do have an issue with the statements that were done and now are not being accomplished at all.

Pointing out the placements where you failed your statements and asking for explanations in several points doesn't mean I need to drop the server where I play for nearly 5 years. My opinion and suggestions are up for discussion but I will not accept the fact that it's a win/win situation when my progression is getting stuck because a hotfix that is released allows me to give one step forward but forces me to give two steps backward. I'm sorry - But that's way too wrong.

[Kasumii]

I will not accept the fact that it's a win/win situation when my progression is getting stuck because a hotfix is released that allows me to give one step forward but forces me to give two steps backward. I'm sorry - But that's way too wrong.

This right here is why you don't test hot fix patches on production realms. It causes a disruption to the playerbase.
The staff is free to run the server as they see fit, but is a little communication in terms of what each hot fix patch is addressing too much to ask for?

How else would we know if a hot fix patch is responsible for breaking VH (one of many examples)? We're only left to speculate because as was mentioned previously sometimes tweaking code can break things in xyz locations which are not related to what was being patched at all.

[Sixtyninee]

I love when people who've only recently joined the server come and act like they have an idea of what's going on. It gives me a small laugh as my palm reaches my face.

[Winki]

Meanwhile, what was at least clearable (even if broken) on the old core is no longer the case. The state of Ragnaros has basically left Ulduar in a better working state than ICC (heroic) at the moment.

ICC had issues before but at least you could clear it without having to bring a full BiS raid into a 10 heroic. Entry level raiding gear for ICC 10 heroic would be roughly 5.6-5.8k. Given the state of just Marrowgar, I find it highly doubtful they'd be able to clear it.

What is this contradiction tho? Clearable even if broken means it is possible to do, which in the old core it was and technically it is now, too, despite all the bugs (even the recent ones due to the hotfix) as you can see on forums it being done by some guilds. About ICC 10hc, I don't know about you but I've done a couple of them with notsogeared toons and it was okay. Obviously needed to log alt healers on VDW and Sindy was painful, but well, it is broken.

Anyways we clearly have divergent opinions about this subject. For you, at least being clearable is fine even if it's broken, whilst I'd rather not even have the boss available (or doable) if it's not properly scripted.

Lots of subjectiveness and different opinions on this subject, I don't think we should carry on with it but accept this decision and deal with it the best way possible.

I love when people who've only recently joined the server come and act like they have an idea of what's going on. It gives me a small laugh as my palm reaches my face.

Don't know if this is directed towards me or what, if it was then you probably haven't read that I've been playing here for roughly 6 years. As if anyone had to be a "molten vet" to emit personal opinions on a game forum anyways.

[Kasumii]

Anyways we clearly have divergent opinions about this subject. For you, at least being clearable is fine even if it's broken, whilst I'd rather not even have the boss available (or doable) if it's not properly scripted.

My examples aside, it still doesn't excuse ignoring best practice for system management because of the situations that arise from it and the disruptions they can cause.

[Tomerz]

Im confused, does this mean we cant JoJ Lk