WotLK Oathbinder HC with STS or DC?

[Bastardbottle]

Normal BiS is STS HC with SM but STS HC is only BiS with BiS gear as I know so my question is, is it still better than DC HC with Oathbinder HC?

PS: PvE only topic.

[Lynea]

No Shadowmourne = Death's Verdict/Choice

The DPS difference is incredibly small either way.

[Selaya]

Actually it`s not as clearcut as that (and I`m at least partially guilty for that I think I invented that belief way earlier when I was less experienced), however generally speaking DVHC is quite a bit better than STS when the rest of your gear isn`t on par yet. The STS overtake happens at about 264 average itemlevel.

[mEOnGG]

As Selaya said, if your gear is something similar to the BIS gear or at least it's normal versions, then STS starts to become better than Death's Choice at around 264 average item level (of all other items excepting the trinket and weapon) with either Oathbinder HC or Shadowmourne. The difference between the two trinkets continues to grow as your gear gets better, however, the difference is never too big to make a considerable difference in the outcome of a fight. With gloren HC however, the point comes still a few item upgrades later, however, whatever weapon set up you run with, in BIS or near to BIS gear, STS HC will always outperform (at least in theory) Death's Choice HC.

[Lynea]

Actually it`s not as clearcut as that (and I`m at least partially guilty for that I think I invented that belief way earlier when I was less experienced), however generally speaking DVHC is quite a bit better than STS when the rest of your gear isn`t on par yet. The STS overtake happens at about 264 average itemlevel.

Indeed. However when it comes to donating, if the person is investing in a Shadowmourne, they should probably go ahead and grab an STS.

As Selaya said, if your gear is something similar to the BIS gear or at least it's normal versions, then STS starts to become better than Death's Choice at around 264 average item level (of all other items excepting the trinket and weapon) with either Oathbinder HC or Shadowmourne. The difference between the two trinkets continues to grow as your gear gets better, however, the difference is never too big to make a considerable difference in the outcome of a fight. With gloren HC however, the point comes still a few item upgrades later, however, whatever weapon set up you run with, in BIS or near to BIS gear, STS HC will always outperform (at least in theory) Death's Choice HC.

I have no idea why you're essentially reposting what was already said. Reposting doesn't make you smart.

[SilverFlash]

Interestingly,for me rawr shows that sts n >dc normal,although by a VERY small amount,I'm currently 2 items away(264 t10 chest and shoulder) from the BiS list normal(264/271 ilvl) not including sts normal.The difference is like ~40 dps on full buff,and even less unbuffed,though i might add that rawr looks very strange to me,it's missing some items(mine doesn't show dc hc for instance,only the normal one) (I have Gloren hc thanks to a little bug on the website back then,instead of Oathbinder)and the stats are strange too(i have 2% less crit in rawr and 1 more ap then on the server unbuffed).I have a question too:should i aim for the sts normal?Anyone has some warmane experience as which is the better,since trinkets usually scale and act a bit different from retail versions.

[mEOnGG]

Indeed. However when it comes to donating, if the person is investing in a Shadowmourne, they should probably go ahead and grab an STS.

I have no idea why you're essentially reposting what was already said. Reposting doesn't make you smart.

It's more of a recapitulation with a small added info. But in any case, whether it was reposting or whatever, it seemed to have been effective as it changed your opinion that STS HC is only for those who also have Shadowmourne.

Interestingly,for me rawr shows that sts n >dc normal,although by a VERY small amount,I'm currently 2 items away(264 t10 chest and shoulder) from the BiS list normal(264/271 ilvl) not including sts normal.The difference is like ~40 dps on full buff,and even less unbuffed,though i might add that rawr looks very strange to me,it's missing some items(mine doesn't show dc hc for instance,only the normal one) (I have Gloren hc thanks to a little bug on the website back then,instead of Oathbinder)and the stats are strange too(i have 2% less crit in rawr and 1 more ap then on the server unbuffed).I have a question too:should i aim for the sts normal?Anyone has some warmane experience as which is the better,since trinkets usually scale and act a bit different from retail versions.

Yeah, it does not show up in mine either. I have some low level trinket edited to give Death's Choice Heroic's stats though so you could do that too. If you get confused, you could easily look up the fields on Death's Choice Normal to know where to fill the respective values. Most of the times Rawr is correct, you could try saving your character, closing Rawr and then re-opening it and reloading the character, it fixes the problem sometimes. If you are closer to the BIS list, then STS Normal also ends up being better than DC Normal (though not DC HC, however), most guides and lists consider trinket weightage measurement with other items being of similar level to that of the trinket itself too I guess, hence the confusion that DC N is always superior to STS N or perhaps that STS HC is always superior to DC HC.

[Lynea]

It's more of a recapitulation with a small added info. But in any case, whether it was reposting or whatever, it seemed to have been effective as it changed your opinion that STS HC is only for those who also have Shadowmourne.

My opinion hasn't changed. It was a general and basic advice offered to someone who may or may not be considering donating. If that's not the case, that's what my guide is for. Which I can tell you haven't read it, because if you had, you'd know what my "opinion" is. You'd also know that it's not an "opinion", you'd understand that it is an empirical and widely-accepted fact that Selaya added to. To which, my other post was directed. So don't flatter yourself.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=325565
Feel free to do some research before you attempt to "school" me.

[mEOnGG]

My opinion hasn't changed. It was a general and basic advice offered to someone who may or may not be considering donating. If that's not the case, that's what my guide is for. Which I can tell you haven't read it, because if you had, you'd know what my "opinion" is. You'd also know that it's not an "opinion", you'd understand that it is an empirical and widely-accepted fact that Selaya added to. To which, my other post was directed. So don't flatter yourself.

http://forum.warmane.com/showthread.php?t=325565
Feel free to do some research before you attempt to "school" me.

I would assume that the entire "Paladin Philosophy" part would be all of your opinion, because clearly you have reposted a BIS list from elitistjerks and there is little to no mention of your "opinion" on trinkets at all. "Actually it is not as clear-cut as that" would not be an addition but a contradiction that Selaya did there, the "Indeed" from you came a lot later. So basically, your statement means that you'd just advise people against some "empirical and widely-stated fact" unless someone comes to step in and provide an alternative answer, I guess.

[magaginho]

I would assume that the entire "Paladin Philosophy" part would be all of your opinion, because clearly you have reposted a BIS list from elitistjerks and there is little to no mention of your "opinion" on trinkets at all. "Actually it is not as clear-cut as that" would not be an addition but a contradiction that Selaya did there, the "Indeed" from you came a lot later. So basically, your statement means that you'd just advise people against some "empirical and widely-stated fact" unless someone comes to step in and provide an alternative answer, I guess.

In the same way that every single guide in this forum will be influenced by other material that can be found on the internet. Your beloved "constructive comments" are also a copy of multiple data found on the internet. However I do consider Lynea a more trustworthy paladin expert since she actually plays this class for a long time (including TBC & WOTLK Live content) than people that state this;

Actually it`s not as clearcut as that (and I`m at least partially guilty for that I think I invented that belief way earlier when I was less experienced), however generally speaking DVHC is quite a bit better than STS when the rest of your gear isn`t on par yet. The STS overtake happens at about 264 average itemlevel.

Because you know... It's still hilarious to see people defending that they invented a theory in a content that has so many years. I don't even need to google such thing 'cause I know those "theories" will pop in the first page of results. It's also funny how multiple of those same search results point out the exact same conclusion that Lynea pointed out.

[Bastardbottle]

In the same way that every single guide in this forum will be influenced by other material that can be found on the internet. Your beloved "constructive comments" are also a copy of multiple data found on the internet. However I do consider Lynea a more trustworthy paladin expert since she actually plays this class for a long time (including TBC & WOTLK Live content) than people that state this;



Because you know... It's still hilarious to see people defending that they invented a theory in a content that has so many years. I don't even need to google such thing 'cause I know those "theories" will pop in the first page of results. It's also funny how multiple of those same search results point out the exact same conclusion that Lynea pointed out.

So what about the topic, sts hc and dc hc :D

[magaginho]

So what about the topic, sts hc and dc hc :D

Why should I repeat what was already stated above?

STS if you're going to rock Shadowmourne if not I would rather use Death's Choice over STS.

[Selaya]

Why should I repeat what was already stated above?

STS if you're going to rock Shadowmourne if not I would rather use Death's Choice over STS.

If you would have but actually read anything posted here you would`ve known that the answer isn`t as clear-cut as that.

[Yhorema]

arpen goes well with arpen
no arpen goes well with no arpen
that's pretty much it.

[Lynea]

arpen goes well with arpen
no arpen goes well with no arpen
that's pretty much it.

No. That's not "pretty much it". Armor pen is *not* what makes STS attractive, and it has very little to do with why its an optimal choice. I fail to understand people who try to judge the value of a trinket using the static stat it provides as a basis. That is a very naive approach to the issue.

I would assume that the entire "Paladin Philosophy" part would be all of your opinion, because clearly you have reposted a BIS list from elitistjerks and there is little to no mention of your "opinion" on trinkets at all. "Actually it is not as clear-cut as that" would not be an addition but a contradiction that Selaya did there, the "Indeed" from you came a lot later. So basically, your statement means that you'd just advise people against some "empirical and widely-stated fact" unless someone comes to step in and provide an alternative answer, I guess.

The link to EJ is a citation of material to back-up what I provided in the guide in case people have doubts on my "opinions" and evaluations. Since you're ignorant of the situation, I think that I should let you know that in addition to myself, Selaya had also put a fair deal of effort and time into improving that guide (RIP the post history). The bulk of the guide is not "opinion", but rather, fact based on empirical, mathematical and theoretical data. "Actually it is not as clear-cut as that" - If you can't understand that the line intends to clarify & expand upon what was said, rather than to oppose it, then it's not my fault your grasp on English isn't strong enough. Using that as an argument point is very silly. I think you'd find that, in obvious opposition to what you seem to believe, Selaya and I agree upon a great deal when it comes to ret paladin - if not everything. He and I just recognize that we have differing view-points at times. Trying to pose him and I at odds won't do you any good. So instead of trying to debate semantics, how about you stick to material that will help the OP instead of pursuing your personal vendetta against me. Thanks in advance.

Because you know... It's still hilarious to see people defending that they invented a theory in a content that has so many years. I don't even need to google such thing 'cause I know those "theories" will pop in the first page of results. It's also funny how multiple of those same search results point out the exact same conclusion that Lynea pointed out.

To be fair to him, what I posted was a simplified approach to the issue, which I often prefer to take when guiding newbies - as opposed to Selaya's preference of going in depth. I think I've explained to him before, and publicly stated in my guide (again, RIP the post history) that I had appreciated his postings because what he had to post was often good in contrast to what I would post. What I would normally post would be simplified and newb-friendly, while what he would post would be a better read for more involved and perhaps veteran players who were more interested in the math behind the issues that were being spoken about.