WotLK Blood, Frost, Unholy. Gnimo's way of how to DK.

[verminslayer]

lol.

i barely ever test on dummies, i did that literally 2 hours ago in 10 minutes with 2 erw tries.

and the point you are making is that your average obliterate is higher against testing dummies(didn't even check ur screens), lets see it in a raid enviroment?

[Cashroll]

Guys @vermin will always try to find up flaws in your explanations, it's like a neverending circle, you come up with a theory which somehow proves itself, a logic explanation, he is looking to bash it, make excuses up, twist your answer, and then ask for more proof and etc and etc, and so on, let him drown in his own world of ignorance and arrogance, not worth wasting your time on hungry for attention kids.

On topic: Exactly Gnimo, it really doesn't matter which BiS you use (there are like 3-4 variations such as agil ring, lana'thel neck, serpent cloak, all with come up with same or close results), as long as you've taken care of your hit > expertise > arp you've left with the RNGesus if he's on your side then you will see those big numbers we all crave for if not, pray for the best.
It's same like warriors, sometimes they top the meters sometimes they are a bit below top 5, depends on their RNG on crits, mostly same for FDK.

I will post my current setup which I'm running with most of the time:
Head: Sanctified Scourgelord Helmet (Heroic)
Enchant => Arcanum of Torment, Meta Socket => Relentless Earthsiege Diamond, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby
Neck: Penumbra Pendant (Heroic)
Yellow Socket => Etched Ametrine
maybe switch it with this below due to expertise issues on warmane
Lana'thel's Chain of Flagellation (Heroic)
Yellow Socket => Etched Ametrine
Shoulder: Sanctified Scourgelord Shoulderplates (Heroic)
Enchant => Greater Inscription of the Axe, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby
Cloak: Varian's Furor or Garrosh's Rage
Enchant => Greater Speed, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby
Maybe Serpent Cloak will perform better since I hear there's expertise cap issues here on Warmane?
Chest: Sanctified Scourgelord Battleplate (Heroic)
Enchant => Scroll of Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby, Blue Socket => Nightmare Tear
Wrist: Toskk's Maximized Wristguards (Heroic)
Enchant => Scroll of Enchant Bracers - Greater Assault, Yellow Socket => Etched Ametrine
Hands: Aldriana's Gloves of Secrecy (Heroic)
Enchant => Hyperspeed Accelerators, Yellow Socket => Etched Ametrine, Red Socket => Fractured Dragon's Eye
Waist: Coldwraith Links (Heroic)
Yellow Socket => Etched Ametrine, Red Socket => Fractured Dragon's Eye, Red Socket => Fractured Dragon's Eye
Legs: Sanctified Scourgelord Legplates (Heroic)
Enchant => Icescale Leg Armor, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby
Feet: Apocalypse's Advance Enchant => Nitro Boosts, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby
Finger: Might of Blight (Heroic)
Yellow Socket => Etched Ametrine
Finger: Ashen Band of Endless Might
Yellow Socket => Etched Ametrine
Trinket: Deathbringer's Will (Heroic)
Trinket: Sharpened Twilight Scale (Heroic)
MainHand: Havoc's Call, Blade of Lordaeron Kings (Heroic)
Runeforging => Rune of Razorice, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby
OffHand: Havoc's Call, Blade of Lordaeron Kings (Heroic)
Runeforging => Rune of the Fallen Crusader, Red Socket => Fractured Cardinal Ruby
Sigil: Sigil of Awareness

AP flask + ArP Food in raids, potion of speed.
I am not at home right now, so I cannot post my results and etc, but someone can sim it like this, with the variations I included(neck, cloak) or test it on dummy, raid environment but for me this setup works best.
My opener rotation: IT > PS > OB > BS > BT + UA > PS
Then stick to prio: Diseases up > OB > BS > Full RP dump FS or KM Proc > HB Rime > FS > HoN

[Gnimo]

(didn't even check ur screens)

This is nice, explain it to me why the hell are u even here in that case?
Whats the point of trying to prove magic exists and ignoring other ppl when they provide facts that it doesnt?
The logic that Avarage DMG is Good on a dummy and its bad in raid is far beyond stupid, im sorry but it is. That NEVER happened for me atleast. Something that improves my DPS for the dummy will improve it in a raid aswell.
If u are so dense that u cant check a screenshot...

I wont simply bother anymore trying to argue with u.
As said, going 2 agility items WONT EVER rip ur DPS, it can only improve it. Since u probably never tryed anything that everyone wrote here u will just have to belive us i guess.
If u dont belive that stick with the full strength build u use, i dont care, just try not to spread ur missinformations here atleast.

Best of Luck.

As for the posts and stuff, i might update couple of things in the next week or two, will see.

[Mercy]

Maybe get an admin or something to delete those posts or warn him to prevent spreading false facts.

If this were a thing, we would have to delete 90% of the posts in the class forum sections. His posts aren't against the rules, unlike you insulting him.

[verminslayer]

Co mon gnimo, show me your dps in raids. I can guarantee your obliterates hit 2-4k less.

[Gnimo]

There is no need for anymore to call admins or remove any comments here so far...
I enjoy drama a lot so that thing is welcome here aswell. U can learn a lot out of it if u want to.

@Verminslayer
Next ICC 25m hc il try to go as Frost DK DPS if i can and link u every fight and avarage DMG of Obliterates, which again means NOTHING since better RNG when it comes to procs and crits will decide who wins.
I cant promice anything since i ussualy tank with DK nowadays, or im forced to log something more usefull for a raid, but il do my best to do it.
If not there is always next week...

If we both do 9.5k Avrg dmg with Obliterate on a dummy, u will MAYBE (if we have exactly the same RNG) do a little bit more duo to advantage from Kings. Thats the ONE and ONLY thing that makes that diference when it comes to Raid vs Dummy discussion (Unless dummy is broken and doesnt have exactly the same stats and defencives as most bosses do). That advantage from Kings is going to be 20-50 Strength max which is basicly nothing.
AGAIN, RNG will decide who wins.

And, one more time, do whatever u want with ur own build, i dont care. If it works for u, great.
I posted and i will keep posting every itemisation there is in this expansion, that i consider worthy posting atleast, when it comes to DK as a whole cos my main goal is to try and make ppl think with their own heads and find their own BIS lists.
From November 26, 2016 when i made this thread ive changed some things and i feel like i improved as a DK player. There is still room for more and that is why il keep trying to update it untill i reach almost perfection.
If u think that u know everything and u cant prove ur point or accept ppl disagreeing with u, just dont bother coming here i guess.
What works for me might not work for someone else...

[trm90]

@Vermin
I understand where your going at, the damage you saw was merged from MH & OH that's why it seems so high. and yes if we're to compare 2dks with 100% arp but the other with higher AP then obviously the one with higher AP will win. I had a similar argument with Gnimo before about agility vs strength, did some research and he is actually correct. going for agility is the only way to maximize for fdk dps since from all arp classes that need Arp frost has the least arp period. due to using 1handed weapons and no ranged like rogues. as a matter of fact even tried it with blood dps and reached the highest possible at 14.8k sim with 1 agility piece.

@Gnimo
the difference in kings will be significant not 20-55. a dk with horn will have 2k+ strength. so with kings that's 200strength+.

[verminslayer]

You can cap arp quite easily with full str offpieces, the reason people struggle to do so on DK is because they are running pieces of gear without the combination of arp+expertise or arp+hit.
I'm going have to disagree until someone beats me in a raid enviroment with agility offpieces and i will gladly eat my words if it happens.

but that's fine, the reason i am saying this is because you are saying it's better, it isn't, ive tried it with 2 agi offpieces and the obliterates never hit as hard and the sustained dps in a raid enviroment was always lower.

on blood dk it's different, they lack a lot of crit boosting talents for skills, it's viable to run more than 2+ agi pieces on bdk dps.

[trm90]

ah nvm just reached 14.9k blood sim with full str setup

[Gnimo]

@trm90
U are right, its more than 50 Strength but the diference is still nothing of importance...

2 DKs:
1st has only the Strength items and has 2000 Strength.
2nd has 2 agility items and has 1800 Strength.
Thats without buffs ofc.
Kings on both.
1st one has 2200
2nd one has 1980
220 Strength diference aka 440 atk power.
Agility items will give u arround 240 atk power so the end result in attack power diference is 200 atk power.

Both DKs will be on 7k+ Atk power so that diference wont matter at all, cos again, RNG will decide who wins (first example higher uptime on Fallen Crusader will win).

One more time:
Higher Avrg Obli DMG: http://imgur.com/a/5WBP6
Higher Crit % on Obli: http://imgur.com/a/WQTmO
The dmg diference is almost 900 per Obliterate, and yet the one with higher crit % won.
If u cant see that from this, i dont know what else to tell u...

http://imgur.com/a/ODJu5
Both itemisations had same crit %.
Diference in atk power btwn them was 200 atk power after Horn of Winter.
The MAIN reason why the diference was so high on both Avrg DMG and Crit % is R N ****ing G.
On the next atempt it was the other way arround.
On third atempt they did same crit % and same Avrg DMG (almost same).
If u dont crit u dont do high numbers when it comes to DPS. Simple as that.

When it comes to Blood DK crit is even more important from gear and u should go for atleast 4 agility items but thats the whole other subject i dont want to get into since Blood DK is just not something u want to go for on this server, unless ur only motive is to have fun.

@Verminslayer
U cant beat a DK that goes 2 agility items EVER. U dont have Blood Caked Blade. Simple as that.
U go Strength build, get 3/3 Subversion to make up for the crit lost duo to no agility, and all the items without Crit in them (arp+exp, arp+hit), and u lose 3-5% overall DMG from BCB.
On fights in which u will have to switch targets a lot u will get demolished and on fights where u dont, u will still lose to a DK with BCB unless he is bad.



The reason why i dont belive in sims is cos not a single sim that maximises DPS does not require u to cap Expertise (ignoring the fact that this is not completely retail like server, but its close).
Going less than 26 expertise (which is easy as **** to get) is a huge DPS lost if u ask me.
U lose some Melee hits (Necrosis and Blood Caked Blade with that) without any reason, and dodge on Obliterate can **** up ur rotation (u have miss for that which is more than enough i guess).
And after u said u reached highest DPS point as Blood DPS (if i understod it corectly) with full Strength Build also blows my mind into pieces.
Hearth Strike and Death Strike deal 245% and Melees deal 200% of normal DMG.
After u reach point of Best in Slot, increasing ur Avarage DMG with trying to get more Attack Power is way harder than getting that extra crit % from agility items.

Maybe i have worst RNG in the game ever, but whenever i tryed going more Attack Power for the Cost of Crit, i got demolished.
On DK, on Warrior, on Paladin. If u have 50% Crit Chance and u manage to crit more than that in raids, stick with the more attack power Build.
For me atleast, that was never the case...

[Gnimo]

http://imgur.com/a/i6QNg

Did some dummyes now. All of them wer done with same Itemisation.
4/5 wer perfect rotation, 1/5 was a bad one with 3 misses on Pestilence.
Top 4 pics had same DBW procs aswell: Crit > Strength. Others wer random i guess...

As u can see, its all about RNG. And also, Crit % of both Melee and Obliterate was almost exactly the same on each atempt so Crit is not a complete RNG stat as u said... If u have 60% crit u will crit arround 58-62% every time.

Do 5 atempts with ur Strength itemisations and post the results. I also want to see the diference, if there is any... (try going with exactly the same talents as i linked)

[Cashroll]

I don't know why we still debate on this matter, it is proven countless of times, by in-game tests, sims, etc that STR > ARP (It's true that STR is a stat with highest value, but during one point, it becomes weaker. Tests and simulations are showing 70% of a fdk's attacks come from a pure physical source. Simulations show that it's around 72% passive ARP where STR becomes an inferior stat) in end-game ultimate BiS setups, and the reason for getting agility off-pieces it's not due to the agility on them, despite being the lowest stat we should aim for, it still has a nice value, it's like a more weaker version of crit, but then again we don't need to gem and aim for crit as well because it will have no influence if you're about to use a FS with KM proc, so therefore it value decreases, on the other hand haste scales better with Icy Talons and Improved Icy Talons, improves melee speed, which also means more KM procs, more Necrosis and more BCB (which is a very amazing talent hands down if you don't have this get it as it is mandatory for pulling every bit of dps out of your DK, but then again every competent DK who knows his stuff has this BCB already). Basicly in the end after you've taken care of HIT and EXPERTISE, what comes next it's ARP > HASTE > CRIT

The real reason we get agility off-pieces and I repeat myself once more due the the fact that an fdk's every damaging ability is dependant on an AP. Converted from STR, it's not worth gemming / aiming it for the obvious reason stated above. You'll find it in a raw / pure state on agility items. Simple as that, Toskks and Aldriana are BiS for an ARP build, nothing more to argue here, even that agil ring can prove more useful than a rep ashen ring on the long haul but i might be mistaken, it all comes down to RNG in the end.

[trm90]

Sims are at the end just sims nothing more, for instance for blood DD build always does more dps than disease in kahorie. while in actual play it's the opposite.

the only agility piece for blood worth going for is aldriana and that too falls behind fleshrending. any other agility item will fall behind it's counterpart.

[Cashroll]

Sims are at the end just sims nothing more, for instance for blood DD build always does more dps than disease in kahorie. while in actual play it's the opposite.

the only agility piece for blood worth going for is aldriana and that too falls behind fleshrending. any other agility item will fall behind it's counterpart.

My statements above apply only to Frost ARP build nothing more, for blood there is entirely another story.

[trm90]

I was addressing Gnimo, my bad I should of quoted.

As for fdk yes I agree entirely, to reach 100% arp with full str piece requires arp on many yellow gems as well. you end up losing so much stats while trying to cover the supposed str benefit that you end up losing other valuable stats.

a fdk with ocean serpent and heir compared to another dk with 2agility pieces both in icc25hc fully buffed, damage difference won't be significant. and if we look at the previous pages with Rikolto posts on the sims on all the different viable setup the damage difference was always about 1kdps. it just shows when you're bis 1-2items won't show much difference, but wholly dependent on RnG as the biggest factor. in spite of that it also shows that agility will be the constant favorable to RnG.

so whether you go full str or full arp. when you're 6.5k gs with 100% arp your skill as a fdk will show the difference.