Technical So loot bans are against TOS

[Obnoxious]

(..).

Let's make a test: whenever you post next, you will be banned based on my Moderator's discretion - whether you get to "loot" more post count is completely up to me. Since such words communicate very clearly what can and can't get you banned and removed from "looting" post count, by your own standards of clarity, you won't have any issue with that. Right?

[xTheLichKingx]

Then they shouldn't be leading a raid if they don't know how to do one of their most important tasks.


It's a Saturday miracle, you actually got a simple concept, which is applied all over social media, gaming and many other activities.

I mean 5 years of experience on warmane alone without a single ban states that I know how to lead a raid quite well.

You keep dodging, why did he get banned, despite everyone agreeing to completely trust him to distribute loot at his discretion? Everyone agreed to give him loot ban powers, should he be able to loot ban only on bosses that guy made mistakes? Or it's is irrelevant, such a thing is completely against the rules? Or is giving absolute powers over loot is against the rules, if so then where is the limit? It's not numerical amount, since I can reserve all BOE. Then is the limit a "type"? Can I reserve "all BOP", it's fundamentaly is the same concept?

I mean what you state is a fact. I exercised my raid leadership ability of loot banning a player and got banned for it. There is no changing that fact. I haven't done anything different in the past 5 years and my guild officers and raid leaders follow the same rubric.

Bis priority = giving players items based on their best in slot
Pre-bis priority = giving players items based on their pre-best in slot
Class priority = giving players items based on their class priority. (Such as ret paladins not getting DBW or STS)
Loot Ban = Punishing a player for failing tactics or trolling in a raid

My "scam" raids are attended non-stop as I run 25+ raids a week every single week and this is the first instance of me getting punished for "Thievery".

My leadership, my raids success rate and the fairness and efficiency in which loot is distributed is what backs me up and has people eager to join our guild's raids.

[Arbiterone]

You have to distribute loot before kicking a player from the raid. From the ninja rules:

Kicking players from raid for no reason, especially before distributing loot from boss kill that they participated in.

Loot banning to me implicates that you will not allow the player to roll an item on a specific boss. And not to exclude him from the loot of all previous bosses he killed. I don't see any contradiction in the way the GMs have enforced the rules here.

The easiest way to avoid headaches if someone is trolling or wiping the raid, is to roll the items and kick him.

I don't know if the GM team would recognize custom loot rules which would exclude a player from all previous bosses he already killed, after all such a thing would directly contradict the existing ninja rules. You would have to contact them to answer such specific questions. And before they answer that question, all we can make is assumptions here in this thread.

[xTheLichKingx]

You have to distribute loot before kicking a player from the raid. From the ninja rules:



Loot banning to me implicates that you will not allow the player to roll an item on a specific boss. And not to exclude him from the loot of all previous bosses he killed. I don't see any contradiction in the way the GMs have enforced the rules here.

The easiest way to avoid headaches if someone is trolling or wiping the raid, is to roll the items and kick him.
I don't know if the GM team would recognize custom loot rules which would exclude a player from all previous bosses he already killed. You would have to contact them to answer such specific questions. And before they answer that question, all we can make is assumptions here in this thread.

My current ban indicates otherwise, they will not. The loot ban was given for a reason, but the reason given was deemed by the GM's "then appearing to create rules and reasons to loot ban the player.", so regardless of the reason I gave for the loot ban, it was deemed a made up reason that was not allowed.

So all in all, loot bans will result in a raid leader being banned if they get reported.'

This is the purpose of this thread. Letting others become aware that loot bans are not tolerated, atleast no longer being tolerated.

[Flereous]

You have to distribute loot before kicking a player from the raid. From the ninja rules:



Loot banning to me implicates that you will not allow the player to roll an item on a specific boss. And not to exclude him from the loot of all previous bosses he killed. I don't see any contradiction in the way the GMs have enforced the rules here.

The easiest way to avoid headaches if someone is trolling or wiping the raid, is to roll the items and kick him.

I don't know if the GM team would recognize custom loot rules which would exclude a player from all previous bosses he already killed, after all such a thing would directly contradict the existing ninja rules. You would have to contact them to answer such specific questions. And before they answer that question, all we can make is assumptions here in this thread.

Asking informative..
what IF assistant kicks someone and let's say the dude gets his heart broken and go offline or simply don't want to return BUT still report the leader of the raid
Is there an actual way to verify such cases on your end? Or it's hammer based on provided pictures/videos-only?

[xTheLichKingx]

Asking informative..
what IF assistant kicks someone and let's say the dude gets his heart broken and go offline or simply don't want to return BUT still report the leader of the raid
Is there an actual way to verify such cases on your end? Or it's hammer based on provided pictures/videos-only?

Likely hammer, as probably was the deal in my case. Everytime I kick a player I let them know the exact reason they're loot banned and kicked.

[Sassafrass]

No more exploiting pugs

[xTheLichKingx]

No more exploiting pugs

I mean pugs wipe on saurfang and raid over after 3-4 bosses in icc so the metric for pug standars are really quite low.

At the end of the day this only harms those that lead successful raids and will prove detrimental to raid success in the future.

[Sassafrass]

true true

At the end of the day, someone plotted against you. The dangers of bringing the pugs into a gated community.

[Fraudest]

The rules mentioned evidently tread the "gray area" and seem designed to exploit a loophole for what could be deemed as a "legal" form of ninja looting. As Obnoxious highlighted, the role of GMs is precisely to address and prohibit individuals exploiting such loopholes.

As numerous individuals have emphasized, it is acceptable to impose loot bans on those who fail specific mechanics related to a particular boss, rather than extending the ban to the entire raid's loot. While this may not be explicitly stated, it aligns with the common understanding of what a "loot ban" entails for the average person.

The statement, "Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion, and the Raid Leader has 100% power over the raid," is ambiguous. The reference to "discretion" introduces uncertainty, as it leaves room for individual interpretation. For instance, if a player chooses to ninja loot, should others accept it? The assumption is that discretion implies fair distribution, but it doesn't explicitly rule out undesirable practices. Furthermore, the statement doesn't clearly convey consequences, such as the extreme scenario where failing a boss mechanic throughout the instance results in losing all loot eligibility. A clearer and more specific set of rules is essential to avoid misunderstandings and ensure a fair and transparent loot distribution system within the raid group.

While you can argue endlessly that you meant x or y with your statements, it is obvious the GMs don't ban without cause. They look for intent. Your intent was probably very clear in the evidence that was submitted by the players. Disagree? Let's look at some screenshots that you were kind enough to post gloating about how your "rules" protect you.

This one from your discord that you're going to claim is a joke or is photoshopped:
https://imgur.com/a/0rQptS3

This one where the guy clearly mentioned that you never once told him that he was failing mechanics and proceeded to remove him before distributing any loot:
https://imgur.com/a/zy55QuA

This DK who was kicked from what I assume is the raid and your guild with no explanation. He also claimed to be top 5 dps, which you did not deny. You provided 0 reasons for kicking him. The shaman in the second screenshot in this was even worse. He implies that he rolled, won the roll and was denied the loot. When this obviously upset player tries to threaten you with exposure on Reddit, etc., you proceed to mock him:
https://imgur.com/a/GUjeZJ1

These two who seem to have been kicked from a VOA post-kill for "failing" mechanics. As someone who has led 25+ raids weekly for 5 years, you at least have a basic understanding of how Ferals and Rogues work:
https://imgur.com/a/8rKvVZZ

You thought your raid rules followed the TOS of the server and protected you. You were wrong. The GMs made it clear with the ban handed out and rejecting the following appeals. Instead, you ask your guildmates to put in mass tickets asking to unban you, ask them to reach out to the GMs over DMs (while asking them to edit and send a template post so it looks "original"), make forum posts like this, and even make a video defending yourself which you end with a call to action: asking for comments bashing the server.

You were wrong. Accept the ban, learn from your mistake, and move on. Or don't.

[xTheLichKingx]

The rules mentioned evidently tread the "gray area" and seem designed to exploit a loophole for what could be deemed as a "legal" form of ninja looting. As Obnoxious highlighted, the role of GMs is precisely to address and prohibit individuals exploiting such loopholes.

As numerous individuals have emphasized, it is acceptable to impose loot bans on those who fail specific mechanics related to a particular boss, rather than extending the ban to the entire raid's loot. While this may not be explicitly stated, it aligns with the common understanding of what a "loot ban" entails for the average person.

The statement, "Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion, and the Raid Leader has 100% power over the raid," is ambiguous. The reference to "discretion" introduces uncertainty, as it leaves room for individual interpretation. For instance, if a player chooses to ninja loot, should others accept it? The assumption is that discretion implies fair distribution, but it doesn't explicitly rule out undesirable practices. Furthermore, the statement doesn't clearly convey consequences, such as the extreme scenario where failing a boss mechanic throughout the instance results in losing all loot eligibility. A clearer and more specific set of rules is essential to avoid misunderstandings and ensure a fair and transparent loot distribution system within the raid group.

While you can argue endlessly that you meant x or y with your statements, it is obvious the GMs don't ban without cause. They look for intent. Your intent was probably very clear in the evidence that was submitted by the players. Disagree? Let's look at some screenshots that you were kind enough to post gloating about how your "rules" protect you.

This one from your discord that you're going to claim is a joke or is photoshopped:
https://imgur.com/a/0rQptS3

This one where the guy clearly mentioned that you never once told him that he was failing mechanics and proceeded to remove him before distributing any loot:
https://imgur.com/a/zy55QuA

This DK who was kicked from what I assume is the raid and your guild with no explanation. He also claimed to be top 5 dps, which you did not deny. You provided 0 reasons for kicking him. The shaman in the second screenshot in this was even worse. He implies that he rolled, won the roll and was denied the loot. When this obviously upset player tries to threaten you with exposure on Reddit, etc., you proceed to mock him:
https://imgur.com/a/GUjeZJ1

These two who seem to have been kicked from a VOA post-kill for "failing" mechanics. As someone who has led 25+ raids weekly for 5 years, you at least have a basic understanding of how Ferals and Rogues work:
https://imgur.com/a/8rKvVZZ

You thought your raid rules followed the TOS of the server and protected you. You were wrong. The GMs made it clear with the ban handed out and rejecting the following appeals. Instead, you ask your guildmates to put in mass tickets asking to unban you, ask them to reach out to the GMs over DMs (while asking them to edit and send a template post so it looks "original"), make forum posts like this, and even make a video defending yourself which you end with a call to action: asking for comments bashing the server.

You were wrong. Accept the ban, learn from your mistake, and move on. Or don't.

The one showing my in-game conversation is quite straight forward:
https://imgur.com/a/zy55QuA

You failed the tactics, you got loot banned. This is how the loot ban system works.

https://imgur.com/a/0rQptS3
The one with the discord screenshots are made up, as is obvious. I also make clickbait posts for my YouTube videos as the majority of my YouTube videos use clickbait, so I've made a post similar to this which was not serious. Yes, I make money off YouTube. No I do not actually insist on "robbing pugs" as if I had done so I'd of been banned atleast once in the last 5 years. Actually I'm going to take this picture for my recent video, thanks.

https://imgur.com/a/8rKvVZZ
You can clearly see I made an effort to give the person the items instead of having the items go to waste. I "didn't allow the player to roll on items" for failing the mechanics. He didn't dps the orbs on Taravon and the raid was dying and wiping, thus they both failed the failed the mechanics. I stated in the raid all dps had to focus the orbs, all includes all, not "special circumstances apply to your special class". Even though I gave the players a loot ban I still didn't let the loot go to waste in any scenario and still insisted on giving them the items EVEN WHEN THEY THREATENED TO REPORT ME. Tell me you would do the same? You wouldn't. If someone threatens you claiming they would get you banned, you wouldn't try to actively give them the items.

https://imgur.com/a/GUjeZJ1
The DK was very obviously in my guild, and adhere'd to my guild rules. He was in his trial run and failed to make the cut. Guild members adhere to guild rules. If we're no longer allowing guilds to operate their own rules in their own raids then idk what to say. The reasons stated are straight forward aswell, tactics failures, bad attitude, etc. As I stated there, just cause someone is geared does not entitle them to a free-ride boost or carry to all the items they want in a guild run.

Borashaman was underperforming that entire raid. The player could not do the tactics for the life of himself and was the cause of many wipes. I remember the name vividly as he wiped the raid too many times and landed on my ignore list. All this screenshot indicates is that we were arguing and he was threatening me. If a player asks why I loot ban them, as you clearly showed in all the previous screenshots, I give them the reason. If they simply threaten me I laugh in their face and let them know the GM's will do a thorough job investigating and they won't ban me as they are smarter than that and recognize that it's a guild raid environment and as the guild master giving the very few pugs that join raid rules that they adhere to and agree to, that

[xTheLichKingx]

Oh wow, then what should work is "all loot is reserved". Since reserving items is completely fine.

If it's as you say, this is completely unjust, infringing on players decisions, because someone withdrew their consent in the next day.

Is this allowed? Are players allowed to reserve all the loot in a raid? If so then we will change operations procedures to this instead.

[xTheLichKingx]

You have to distribute loot before kicking a player from the raid. From the ninja rules:



Loot banning to me implicates that you will not allow the player to roll an item on a specific boss. And not to exclude him from the loot of all previous bosses he killed. I don't see any contradiction in the way the GMs have enforced the rules here.

The easiest way to avoid headaches if someone is trolling or wiping the raid, is to roll the items and kick him.

I don't know if the GM team would recognize custom loot rules which would exclude a player from all previous bosses he already killed, after all such a thing would directly contradict the existing ninja rules. You would have to contact them to answer such specific questions. And before they answer that question, all we can make is assumptions here in this thread.

If I want to run a raid how I see fit and do what I feel is necessary to ensure raids success, is this possible? Is there anything at all I can do to make myself the sole-proprietor of my own raids? I have run my raids for the last 5 years the same way and that's with an iron fist.

Is it possible to reserve all the loot and items? Obviously my previous raid rules didn't work as they were apparently too ambiguous. What raid rules can I implement to make myself safe from future bans but also allow myself to distribute loot how I see fit in my guild raids.

[Fraudest]

The one showing my in-game conversation is quite straight forward:
https://imgur.com/a/zy55QuA

You failed the tactics, you got loot banned. This is how the loot ban system works.

That is not how the loot ban system works. You can't ban someone from ALL the loot for failing one mechanic. The server rules state that in black and white - with 0 room for interpretation.

https://imgur.com/a/0rQptS3
The one with the discord screenshots are made up, as is obvious. I also make clickbait posts for my YouTube videos as the majority of my YouTube videos use clickbait, so I've made a post similar to this which was not serious. Yes, I make money off YouTube. No I do not actually insist on "robbing pugs" as if I had done so I'd of been banned atleast once in the last 5 years. Actually I'm going to take this picture for my recent video, thanks.

I personally took this screenshot from your discord. Make of that what you will.

https://imgur.com/a/8rKvVZZ
You can clearly see I made an effort to give the person the items instead of having the items go to waste. I "didn't allow the player to roll on items" for failing the mechanics. He didn't dps the orbs on Taravon and the raid was dying and wiping, thus they both failed the failed the mechanics. I stated in the raid all dps had to focus the orbs, all includes all, not "special circumstances apply to your special class". Even though I gave the players a loot ban I still didn't let the loot go to waste in any scenario and still insisted on giving them the items EVEN WHEN THEY THREATENED TO REPORT ME. Tell me you would do the same? You wouldn't. If someone threatens you claiming they would get you banned, you wouldn't try to actively give them the items.

I call BS on this. Those screenshots have you saying "Almost wiped" to both of them. And you claiming you said all DPS have to focus on orb is up in the air because there is no proof. Now please don't go harass your guildmates for screenshots of you saying that in random raids. At the end of the day, the gms most likely received this conversation as proof of you abusing raid lead authority.

If someone threatened to get me banned and I give them the loot, it's probably because I'm scared it will actually happen. That's human nature. The only defence you could possibly have here is that you clearly had no reason to "ninja" the item. I believe this was more a "because i can" or "didn't respect my authority" ban. But it just continues to highlight your mentality towards what you consider fair and effective raid leading. Anyone else would have just distributed the loot, blacklisted the person from their future raids and moved on.

https://imgur.com/a/GUjeZJ1
The DK was very obviously in my guild, and adhere'd to my guild rules. He was in his trial run and failed to make the cut. Guild members adhere to guild rules. If we're no longer allowing guilds to operate their own rules in their own raids then idk what to say. The reasons stated are straight forward aswell, tactics failures, bad attitude, etc. As I stated there, just cause someone is geared does not entitle them to a free-ride boost or carry to all the items they want in a guild run.

That's fair. The guy in your guild is subject to your guild rules. Kicking him under the reason of guild was acceptable. I personally feel that if someone is in a trial phase in a guild, it is still unreasonable to outright deny him any loot for a run, especially if you're not following a fixed DKP or Loot Council system - but you're free to disagree with me on that take.

Borashaman was underperforming that entire raid. The player could not do the tactics for the life of himself and was the cause of many wipes. I remember the name vividly as he wiped the raid too many times and landed on my ignore list. All this screenshot indicates is that we were arguing and he was threatening me. If a player asks why I loot ban them, as you clearly showed in all the previous screenshots, I give them the reason. If they simply threaten me I laugh in their face and let them know the GM's will do a thorough job investigating and they won't ban me as they are smarter than that and recognize that it's a guild raid environment and as the guild master giving the very few pugs that join raid rules that they adhere to and agree to, that

This stopped being a guild run the moment you invited a pug. The original rule that you can't kick someone without distributing rules still stand and this is 100% a valid report.

At this point it is clear your hubris will not let you accept reality. I'm at my limit of trying to counter the mental gymnastics you perform to justify your position. Like I said, accept and learn from your mistake or dont. No skin off my back. Good luck going forward.

[xTheLichKingx]

My point is I've not done anything other guild/raid leaders aren't actively doing as we speak, and they aren't receiving the same penalty yet, but they can and will if they get reported.

If the player fails the tactics for every boss fight and are loot banned for every boss fight, that still breaks the TOS of not rolling the loot, so no loot bans are not acceptable in any regards for any bosses.

I'm not playing "mental gymnastics", I am stating that no amount of moaning or complaining will change my situation and everyone else should be aware that what got me banned can and will get them banned and that loot bans are against the TOS.

Also I get paid for YT, if I make controversial posts on discord for the sake of a YT video thumbnail, thats $$$ in my pocket. Take from that what you will.