WotLK AV graveyard farming and Deserter debuff for avoiding being farmed on AV

[dlugii]

Everyone knows the drill about AV graveyard farming. I would like to ask for an opinion from server staff how does this activity (AV graveyard farming) relate to Players Code of Conduct:

NO SOCIAL MISTREATMENT OR ANNOYANCE
Disrupting gameplay: Using minor exploits or poorly designed parts of game mechanics to noticably interfere with other players' gameplay. Examples of such are: Resetting NPCs while other players joust with them on Argent Tournament and joining RDF only to idle and refuse to leave on your own to avoid the debuff.

It's obvious that being farmed is not fun and gives poor performance to one of the sides, affects negatively server's popularity etc. Yes, I am aware of what is said just below in the rules:

"This does not include playing according to game mechanics and game design like corpse camping in PvP enabled zones, which is not punishable."

These two just get in conflict when it comes to AV graveyard farming which is "poorly designed parts of game mechanics to noticably interfere with other players' gameplay" vs. "playing according to game mechanics". So this is why I would like server's staff to give us an answer: Is allowing playing according to game mechanics at costs of other players experience our goal?

Another thing here is that this leads to unfair inactivity Deserter debuff for people who attempt to avoid being farmed like this when they run to other graveyard as ghost. A fair example can be watched here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2433032341

You don't need to watch whole video to admit that I was not inactive or invaluable player for the match. I've been core player killing Captain Galvangar at ~5:15 for example. I've also participated in burning Frostwolf towers and attempted to kill Drek'Thar. This is not inactivity, this is following game rules and mechanics to win the match. Yet, I've been removed from the battle for inactivity which is absurd in that case. And a solution preventing abusement which leads to unfair punishment of players should just meet a veto.

Yes, I could've probably avoided this by entering the Spirit zone right when Horde player started capping the graveyard but this is, uhm, "overcombined requirement to avoid being unfairly punished", so let's just leave it.

Yes, we need a system to remove AFKers, bots, farmers and other of this kind from the game for common gameplay improvement and while this system isn't perfect it's hard to find better solution. At least I can't at the moment.

But there is one option, discussable, can't deny it, which would help for both ,imo serious, issues (giving terrible gameplay experience to some and unfair player punishment): forbidding this kind of activity (AV graveyard farming). Yes, I know, "that's how this game has been designed". Still, this is obvious mechanics abusement leading to massive players dissatisfaction despite being a play according to game mechanics. And here I would also like to see opinion from the community - what are people's feelings about AV graveyard farming and if it should be forbidden?

[Arbiterone]

Why should you losing at PvP be the Staff's concern? Rather than pointing fingers to someone else, why not gather with other players and do something about it yourself?
Back in the day guilds would form and organize just to bring their faction back to the top.

[Obnoxious]

These two just get in conflict when it comes to AV graveyard farming which is "poorly designed parts of game mechanics to noticably interfere with other players' gameplay" vs. "playing according to game mechanics". So this is why I would like server's staff to give us an answer: Is allowing playing according to game mechanics at costs of other players experience our goal?

You are confusing "I don't like how this mechanic works" with "poorly designed mechanics." You don't start the at your graveyard with the other faction on top of yours. That's a situation that happens, be it because the other side overpowers you, because they are better organized, because your side has no hint of organization at all, or other similar reasons. As Arbiter said, instead of complaining about a player-created situation, people used to just work together to not let it happen in the first place. It is doable and it's in the players' hands to accomplish it.

[dlugii]

Why should you losing at PvP be the Staff's concern?

It's not about me losing at PvP but about "Using minor exploits or poorly designed parts of game mechanics to noticably interfere with other players' gameplay." I am not asking GM to enter Alliance or Horde side and help them in fight, I am looking for solution to prevent an unenjoyable corpse camping in battlegrounds from happening because it leads to major player dissatisfaction. I am pretty sure it has negative impact on server popularity. And I am even more certain this is the Staff's concern.

Rather than pointing fingers to someone else, why not gather with other players and do something about it yourself?
Back in the day guilds would form and organize just to bring their faction back to the top.

That's just vice versa - why would players point their fingers at server Staff if they could solve it themselves? How about "why would the Staff point their fingers at players if they can also take care of it"? This doesn't give constructive feedback.

Back in the day guilds would form and organize just to bring their faction back to the top.

This one is also not constructive - back in the day there was no Warcraft nor Warmane and people would just like what they have. Yes, back in the days it was different but that's past and today we have different situation which I would like to adress here.

You are confusing "I don't like how this mechanic works" with "poorly designed mechanics."

No, I am not. Poorly designed mechanics are something that makes game unfair, unenjoyable or in general cause negative experience. This way it could be compared to ninja looting: Master Looter took all the loot? "You don't like how this mechanic works".

You don't start the at your graveyard with the other faction on top of yours. That's a situation that happens, be it because the other side overpowers you, because they are better organized, because your side has no hint of organization at all, or other similar reasons.

You are right about people not having a clue how to work that around but I can't change their play. I commit to the game as much as I can, you can see it yourself on the video.

As Arbiter said, instead of complaining about a player-created situation, people used to just work together to not let it happen in the first place. It is doable and it's in the players' hands to accomplish it.

I agree you can join as premade, organize people in battle etc. I get your point here. But both of you are wrong about camped people being able to counter the camping side - after resurrection, be it 5, 10 or 40 players, everyone is smashed down with massive AoE and precasted spells. People who just got resurrected have 0 seconds to react, buff themselves, they get immediately stunned, feared etc. There is no way to win that, you can just die over and over again every 30 seconds until someone captures the graveyard or attempt to run to another graveyard for safe resurrection... And get kicked from the battle due to Inactivity (again, video).

And on top of that: none of you has replied to the situation where players are punished with unfair Deserter debuff when they attempt to, guess what, "not let it happen". Why?

We could also discuss what's the goal of the game or, more precisely, what's the goal of the battleground? Farming helpless players who have just got spawned? Some may want it goal of the game, okay, but that's not the goal of that battleground. It's avoiding game objectives and abusement of it's mechanics to make other players experience miserable.

If poeple want to reach honorable kill cap or just kill challengeless players perhaps they would prefer to play a custom Graveyard Battleground where pack of 5 HP Kobolds spawns every 30 seconds on map with size of Arena preparation zone and they can use their powerful spells and gaming skills to immediately smash them down to the ground for the sake of whatever they are doing it for on AV.

[Arbiterone]

You were getting ganked at the southmost graveyard of the BG, the farthest place possible from your team. You want us to ban the horde players who ganked you there, effectively making it against the rules to gank players who are roaming in the enemy base.

Perhaps just work a bit more closely with your team to not get into that situation in the first place. Your team is all over the map instead of coordinating together. You put yourself in that position and you want us to take action by banning the horde players who didn't let you do whatever you want in their base.

This whole matter is a git gud one and it baffles me how you want the Staff to get involved.

[Obnoxious]

No, I am not. Poorly designed mechanics are something that makes game unfair, unenjoyable or in general cause negative experience. This way it could be compared to ninja looting: Master Looter took all the loot? "You don't like how this mechanic works".

You can repeat that as many times as it takes to convince yourself, but you are. Getting camped is a possible result, a consequence of something that happened beforehand, which sure is "unfair and unenjoyable," but that's the case of any PvP where you get overpowered and massacred.

You are right about people not having a clue how to work that around but I can't change their play.

Staff isn't going to intervene because random people in a group activity are playing it underpar or plain wrong.

But both of you are wrong about camped people being able to counter the camping side - after resurrection, be it 5, 10 or 40 players, everyone is smashed down with massive AoE and precasted spells. People who just got resurrected have 0 seconds to react, buff themselves, they get immediately stunned, feared etc. There is no way to win that, you can just die over and over again every 30 seconds until someone captures the graveyard or attempt to run to another graveyard for safe resurrection... And get kicked from the battle due to Inactivity (again, video).

Intentionally or not, you're missing the point: don't let your side get in the position of getting graveyard camped. If you are getting camped, your side lacks the power or organization to win by letting yourselves get pushed there.

And on top of that: none of you has replied to the situation where players are punished with unfair Deserter debuff when they attempt to, guess what, "not let it happen". Why?

You already answered that yourself, even adding that you can't think of another solution.

We could also discuss what's the goal of the game or, more precisely, what's the goal of the battleground? Farming helpless players who have just got spawned? Some may want it goal of the game, okay, but that's not the goal of that battleground. It's avoiding game objectives and abusement of it's mechanics to make other players experience miserable.

No, avoiding the mechanics isn't abusing anything. They are preventing you from winning, are they not? Your side let itself be put into that position for whatever reason, did they not? The goal of the battleground is winning or not letting the other side win. As I already said, you are confusing something you don't like with it being poorly designed, and the only "poor design" seems to be that it lets you get overwhelmed by a better enemy.

[dlugii]

You were getting ganked at the southmost graveyard of the BG, the farthest place possible from your team. You want us to ban the horde players who ganked you there, effectively making it against the rules to gank players who are roaming in the enemy base.

Who said anything about banning? I am looking for a solution to a mechanics abusement which makes people leave the game.

Perhaps just work a bit more closely with your team to not get into that situation in the first place.

Perhaps just watch the video again, from the beginning, rather than commenting a single part which is comfortable for you to avoid reasonable argument. Then you may realize that what I've done was actually indeed getting closer to my team in Frostwolf camp to win the battle because we've lost regular fight and there was no chance to win it - Horde was simply stronger and/or better organized.

This whole matter is a git gud one and it baffles me how you want the Staff to get involved.

This discussion with you is a git gud one and it baffles me how you avoid answering important matters and focus only on things I haven't even mentioned, like banning other players. One may think Moderators are here to help people resolve their affairs but apparently all this one can do is ban people for whatever reason. But getting a Deserter debuff for avoiding being graveyard farmed? Nah, that's beyond his/her s

Getting camped is a possible result, a consequence of something that happened beforehand, which sure is "unfair and unenjoyable," but that's the case of any PvP where you get overpowered and massacred.

One could say the same about ninja looting - is a possible result, a consequence (...) which sure is "unfair and unenjoyable,", etc. but yet, you can address the matter accordingly and here you avoid that. Why?

Staff isn't going to intervene because random people in a group activity are playing it underpar or plain wrong.

Here you're just distorting the facts - addressing Alliance's gameplay rather than speaking about the Horde players giving poor game experience to other poeple. In that particular case of course, I've been on the farming side too and whenever I've capped the graveyards I've been called "polish dog", poeple wished me that my mother dies etc., but again - this is not the topic of this discussion.

Intentionally or not, you're missing the point: don't let your side get in the position of getting graveyard camped. If you are getting camped, your side lacks the power or organization to win by letting yourselves get pushed there.

I understand that but sometimes opponents are just better - regular situation in PvP. Does it mean they are allowed to act like this? To block other people from playing the game?

You already answered that yourself, even adding that you can't think of another solution.

And here you're also avoiding answer to the difficult matter - unfair debuff gotten from a custom mechanic which is supposed to improve players experience (and it does the opposite in this case). Perhaps you can answer precisely how was I supposed to avoid getting Deserter in this particular situation? I died in the middle of enemy base - right and rather obvious situation to happen but then I left the resurrection zone to avoid being farmed over and over again, that graveyard has been capped, next nearest has been in control of enemy too and boom - no way to fix it, just get Deserter for inactivity while trying to fairly contribute to the game. You may say I should not go there at all because all above may happen - right, but in that case Horde was definitely stronger in the field, there was no chance to win the battle by regular fight so we went for an alternate option (yes, you can win that batter in other way than farming enemy to 0 resources). This didn't work for also so instead of being able to continue the fight and look for yet another solution I've been removed from the game. Is that fair?

Just to clarify - I am not asking to remove the inactivity mechanic because despite not being perfect it still solves another, well known and rather serious issue.

No, avoiding the mechanics isn't abusing anything. They are preventing you from winning, are they not? Your side let itself be put into that position for whatever reason, did they not? The goal of the battleground is winning or not letting the other side win. As I already said, you are confusing something you don't like with it being poorly designed, and the only "poor design" seems to be that it lets you get overwhelmed by a better enemy.

Please, read it again. I wrote that avoiding game objectives is an abusement of the mechanics to make other players experience miserable, not that "avoiding the mechanics is abusing something". That's not the same. I also haven't written that "getting overwhelmed by a better enemy is a poor design".

I don't deny that getting farmed at the graveyard is a situation that I don't like - nobody does. Losing to enemy is one thing, getting constantly farmed without without possibility to even move is a whole another stuff. Do you deny that mechanics letting the latter happen are of poor design? All players can do in that particular situation is stand and keep getting killed (or attempt to ress somewhere else risking a Deserter debuff). Or they can leave, of course. Isn't that a poor design?

And again - instead of providing a solution or constructive opinion you just refer what I like, what I don't, suggest I want to ban someone or other. "We won't help you", "learn to play" instead of giving a reasonable feedback.

[Obnoxious]

You want reasonable feedback? Get good and with people who are good, and don't get camped.

Aside that, this is going in circles, the only difference being that your walls of text are getting larger.
We don't consider graveyard camping to be abusing anything, that isn't about to change. The "miserable experience" is a consequence of not having gear, skill or organization enough to avoid getting PvPed. Fix the cause, don't ask us to shield you from the consequences.

[dlugii]

We don't consider graveyard camping to be abusing anything, that isn't about to change. The "miserable experience" is a consequence of not having gear, skill or organization enough to avoid getting PvPed. Fix the cause, don't ask us to shield you from the consequences.

Do you play the game? Do you consider graveyard camping a source of "miserable experience" for others? You don't see anything wrong in this and in fact that it makes people quit the game and server?

EDIT: And you are still avoiding the unfair Deserter debuff topic.

[Shred]

The only issue with AV farming is that the anti-afk mechanic that warmane added makes it very hard to escape the graveyard because if you walk to some other graveyard whilst you are a ghost you are almost guaranteed to get kicked.

otoh, getting cornered and farmed in a graveyard is nothing but a git gud situation which the staff shouldn't do anything about.

And, if I may raise this point, which is sometimes completely forgotten, you are asking for people who are better equipped and organised than you to be robbed of the opportunity to annihilate you, which in my opinion is antithetical to what a game should aim for. That, for some reason, we have to make sure that worse players don't have a bad experience, because of reasons that don't sound convincing to me. And I say this as someone who gets farmed more often than not - in fact, I am one of the players in your team in that VOD you linked to.

[dlugii]

getting cornered and farmed in a graveyard is nothing but a git gud situation which the staff shouldn't do anything about.

Yes, as long as you can do something to get out from this situation... But as you've also noted this is rather difficult with the custom anti-afk mechanic. And combination of those is the issue I came here with but they are avoiding to adress it, they just reply to parts of it they find easy and comfortable for them.

[Arbiterone]

You can make a suggestion thread in regards to how long it takes for the anti-AFK system to kick in. Most of the thread, however, you're trying to get those players banned instead of discussing this specific topic.
In your video you were dead for 3 minutes and made no attempt to ressurrect. You could have manually rezed 3 times during that time, rezzing in the farthest possible place from where the horde was so you could escape. Instead, you remained dead and so the system decided to kick you after 3 minutes.

[Mercy]

-Main Post-

I do completely understand that there's situations that occur, which end up in camping situations. Situations where, for example, the people that get graveyard camped and just stop respawning get upset to the point where they will sit there and report people as AFK when they're trying to go interact with an objective - even if it's to temporarily stop the graveyard farming (AV and AB especially in that regard).

I'm personally very familiar with those types of situations, and agree completely: they suck to find oneself in. I also know that it's often impossible to stop it from happening, regardless of how geared or skilled you are. The graveyard gets camped, and you get reported as AFK whenever you do absolutely anything but sit there AFK as a ghost. It's been that way for a very long time.

How come we didn't make any changes sooner? Honestly, I don't really have an excuse to give you. It was a solution we came up with at the time that we'd hope would address the issue of people just sitting AFK and collecting honor points - essentially botting honor without using a bot. We have a lot going on in various different aspects of the game, and multiple realms, and sometimes we just can't come up with any good solutions.

That said, though, I think we can at least have a discussion about potential solutions. You can post those here, which would technically be fine as myself and some others may be watching the thread. However, the suggestions forum section is more ideal for actual suggestion posts - which I realize this thread technically isn't that. In the meantime, I'll see about asking in the staff about potential solutions.

[Obnoxious]

Do you play the game? Do you consider graveyard camping a source of "miserable experience" for others? You don't see anything wrong in this and in fact that it makes people quit the game and server?

EDIT: And you are still avoiding the unfair Deserter debuff topic.

I don't PvP. If I did, I wouldn't do Battlegrounds, the whole lemming zerg rush doesn't strike my fancy.

Again, any competitive situation where you are obliterated will possibly be a "miserable experience" for you, but that's part of the nature of Battlegrounds. We already limit that a little with the bracket division, something that didn't happen in retail, but it's still liable to happen and par for the course. Without the artificial brackets you would be going against whole teams with min-maxed gear, no matter if it was your first Battleground ever.

Naturally people quitting isn't ideal, but if someone quits over getting graveyard camped, they would likely quit out of being ganked, or facing better teams in Arena, or being attacked by multiboxers, or due to repeatedly losing in Battlegrounds even if no graveyards were involved. Like I said more than once before, getting camped like that is a consequence, not a starting condition. If someone would quit due to losing by an overwhelming margin, it wouldn't take Battlegrounds and graveyards to make it happen.

No, I'm not avoiding. You asked why the debuff works like it does, while also saying you knew why it was there and that you couldn't come up with a better way to do it. If you need it spelled out, it works like it does exactly because it's there for the purpose you already know - to deal with people who would die and just not respawn to avoid getting camped, staying like that until the time was up for the match - and it ends up punishing people who are trying to play objectives because, as far as I'm aware, no one could come up with a feasible solution that can work perfectly on all situations, just like you can't. If someone can offer a solution that would be viable, not open to abuse, and in fact better than this, we are open to listening, but so far it hasn't really happened.

[dlugii]

Most of the thread, however, you're trying to get those players banned instead of discussing this specific topic.

Show me where. You are the one who brought word "ban" to this topic and you keep talking about this because apparently this is all you can can do and come up with. I've already told you - we are not giving bans here. You have to look for different topic which is within your scope.

[...]

A voice of reason from the Staff! Thank you!

Again, any competitive situation where you are obliterated will possibly be a "miserable experience" for you, but that's part of the nature of Battlegrounds.

You can call any lose "miserable situation" but scale of the incident is what makes the difference.

Naturally people quitting isn't ideal, but if someone quits over getting graveyard camped, they would likely quit out of being ganked, or facing better teams in Arena, or being attacked by multiboxers, or due to repeatedly losing in Battlegrounds even if no graveyards were involved. Like I said more than once before, getting camped like that is a consequence, not a starting condition. If someone would quit due to losing by an overwhelming margin, it wouldn't take Battlegrounds and graveyards to make it happen.

Again - scale of the event matters and finding yourself in any of the situations you listed is much different from graveyard farming when you attempt to "measure" them. And in addition there's one major difference between "being ganked, or facing better teams in Arena, or being attacked by multiboxers, or due to repeatedly losing in Battlegrounds" and getting graveyard camped in AV - you can stop (avoid) the situation without consequences or you can find a walkaround. There is no walkaround or way to stop being graveyard camped but try to run to different graveyard and risk Deserter.

No, I'm not avoiding. You asked why the debuff works like it does, while also saying you knew why it was there and that you couldn't come up with a better way to do it. If you need it spelled out, it works like it does exactly because it's there for the purpose you already know - to deal with people who would die and just not respawn to avoid getting camped, staying like that until the time was up for the match - and it ends up punishing people who are trying to play objectives because, as far as I'm aware, no one could come up with a feasible solution that can work perfectly on all situations, just like you can't. If someone can offer a solution that would be viable, not open to abuse, and in fact better than this, we are open to listening, but so far it hasn't really happened.

Yes, you've been avoiding because you haven't touched this topic prior to this paragraph. Nevertheless - what's wrong with "people who would die and just not respawn to avoid getting camped" actually? That campers can't camp? This is just the situation they have caused themselves because their pathetic play style makes people stop respawn. Read what you wrote yourself, just from the other side's point of view as if graveyard campers were the target audience:
"don't let your side get in the position of getting <the opponent> graveyard camped"
or "They are preventing you from winning, are they not? Your side let itself be put into that position for whatever reason, did they not? The goal of the battleground is winning or not letting the other side win. As I already said, you are confusing something you don't like with it being poorly designed"
or "Fix the cause, don't ask us to shield you from the consequences."
or "Get good and with people who are good, and don't camp." - I've altered this one a little.

This applies as much to campers complaining that people don't respawn (and then they can't camp). How come you can implement custom solutions that let players camp graveyards and punishes poeple who avoid it but not otherwise? People who wouldn't respawn because other side acts like complete *******s is just them using default game mechanics against these animals. They are using game mechanics just as those who camp. Perhaps they could then regroup and take the advantage on the enemy after they finally move on because they have no harmless kobold-like enemis to slaughter? Again your words come here nicely: "and it ends up punishing people who are trying to play objectives"

You will probably say that people who avoid being camped affects negatively rest of their team who would like to play. I agree, but:

1. As I've mentioned already: current solution brought by Staff also punishes people who would like to play. This kind of solution is in my opinion unacceptable.
2. In matter of working on game objective, what's the difference between person who's AFK avoiding respawn and person who's AFK dying constantly at the graveyard getting farmed (and not getting Deserter)? Well, yes, the latter don't get kicked but also first ones don't contribute to the game because they are AFK and the second ones, well... They contribute to the game but to the enemy team by reducing their team's resources points.

That said, though, I think we can at least have a discussion about potential solutions. You can post those here, which would technically be fine as myself and some others may be watching the thread. However, the suggestions forum section is more ideal for actual suggestion posts - which I realize this thread technically isn't that. In the meantime, I'll see about asking in the staff about potential solutions.

I guess having this one for just general discussion about the topic is good and if we come up with something worth suggesting then we can create post in mention section. For now we can't bring anything constructive because we need more details about Staff's approach to it... Which is inconsistent in my opinion what I am trying to explain here.

We also should determine crucial rules (or let's call it "boundary conditions"):

1. We ought to agree that graveyard camping is the cause of the whole situation: where fair players attempting to play the game according to objectives are unfairly punished by custom mechanics brought by server's Staff. "Miserable experience" is another thing but it doesn't seem that server's Staff cares that much if players like the server and community...
2. Are campers "untouchable" at all? I am not talking about bans here, don't get excited, Arbiter. Are any "other means of punishment" applicable or nothing at all? I am asking about this because, well... Graveyard camping is cause of the difficult situation (number 1).