Realms Request for Reconsideration of Recent Change to Balance Druids

[jmsvanbuskirk]

pretty much every single raid uses 2 boomies, 3 is more common than one. the 2nd boomie is nice for adds on dbs with the 2 typhoons and 2 starfalls, they are also liked for lod because they are good at handling spheres and clearing rooms, and for typhoon on vile spirits. Damage-wise they obviously always were behind mages, but a very good boomie could beat mediocre mages, which is the perfect spot for a support specc to be in.

You don't typhoon on DBS because it increases the time beasts are alive. That's a noob meta you probably see in normals or pugs. Starfall doesn't line up with beast timers and it's negligible. You use shadow priests on LoD. One typhoon has always been enough for anything, but never has been required. If you had the choice between an extra boomkin or a dps doing thousands more damage it's pretty obvious.

[Bloodreina9]

You don't typhoon on DBS because it increases the time beasts are alive. That's a noob meta you probably see in normals or pugs. Starfall doesn't line up with beast timers and it's negligible. You use shadow priests on LoD. One typhoon has always been enough for anything, but never has been required. If you had the choice between an extra boomkin or a dps doing thousands more damage it's pretty obvious.

Playing in one of top 3 guilds in leaderboard you love to mention so often and we played 3 boomies last week.. Raid leader force me to typhoon every beasts at dbs, I do frozen orbs at lod and even clearing rooms from spirits with starfall. We had only one shadow priest and weekly they want typhoon from me.. We do it all wrong, it's pretty obvious.. Will complain to guild master that I want to reroll to something doing thousands more dmg. I only hope he will be willing to take me to full hc content as naked fire mage with 0 xp.

[Allylilith]

You don't typhoon on DBS because it increases the time beasts are alive. That's a noob meta you probably see in normals or pugs. Starfall doesn't line up with beast timers and it's negligible. You use shadow priests on LoD. One typhoon has always been enough for anything, but never has been required. If you had the choice between an extra boomkin or a dps doing thousands more damage it's pretty obvious.

Okay, so you are literally absolutely clueless about how the game is played. Typhoon increases the time beasts are alive? huh? I mean, what? how? it knocks and slows them, giving people more time to kill them without them getting in range of rdps. starfall doesnt line up with beasts? are you aware that people can *not* use their abilities despite them being off cd, and wait until beasts spawn to pop starfall? boomies were nice for the support they offered, but with this change and them actually doing many thousands of dps less than other casters and offering reduced support, it does turn into what you think reality is, where more than 1 boomie per raid is a waste. How is that a good thing?

And one typhoon being enough for anything is also a horrible argument. one tank is also enough for anything, does that mean the ideal raid composition is solotanking full 12hc 0%? just because something is possible doesnt mean that its ideal. I am starting to feel like you did 10 raids very badly as a boomie 7years ago and think you unlocked infinite wisdom. I have also done probably around 100 lods without a shadow priest and it was completely fine, cant say the same about boomie. You seem so extremely detached from the game, that I dont understand how you even ended up here in the forum.

Edit: also interesting to note that everything you say just justifies this change even less? if boomie is such useless garbage despite "bug abusing 2set for more damage" why is this change for them to become even worse, not a bad decision? it's crazy how confident you are despite making so little sense

[msbg]

I don't know how shifting to lashing out at me really helps your argument to revert this fix, but ok. Trying to discredit me only introduces fallacy to your position as that actually isn't a variable in winning the case. I'd appreciate if you stop deviating and avoiding making an actual argument against the fix.

What you need to defend is your claim that a decent leader would want more than one boomkin. PvE ladder is one example, but every reputable website and guide states just one. You set up your raid comp this way in progression as well. Explain in detail with your knowledge of the spec why I would want more than one if given the option of setting up an ideal composition.

This actually raises another question. If you guys are taking 2 or 3 boomkins to raids creating a less than ideal composition then wouldn't having less boomkins actually contribute to a healthier raid environment? Wouldn't this mean boomkins would play classes that did increased damage and filled those crucial roles?

You can't turn around my request for evidence. The bug is already fixed so you're the one that needs to prove your claim. Which you can't. That's why it's a bad argument to have the fix undone.

It's impossible to not lash out on you, because you are trying to counter argument literally every argument to literally everyone that is writing a message here, therefore people are getting rage baited by your inexperienced comments (or stupidity, at this point I'm not sure) and are trying to prove you wrong, so that they can prove themselves right, but it's just a trap hole that I fell into as well. Took me some time to realize why others gave up on answering you.

I like how on some topics (that benefit you) you have this professional opinion, but on the other topics (that don't benefit you) you pretend to be numb and asking others to write a detailed explanation for you.

Also, if you had the brain to check top 5 on the PVE Ladder, use your brain to check below top 5 as well so that you can find 2 Boomies on all of those timers. Also use your brain to swap from Icecrown to Lordaeron category as well to have some idea for both.

Your other sources: "Trust me bro I saw it on a popular website"

If you ask for evidence, it works. If we ask, it doesn't - got it.

You don't typhoon on DBS because it increases the time beasts are alive. That's a noob meta you probably see in normals or pugs. Starfall doesn't line up with beast timers and it's negligible. You use shadow priests on LoD. One typhoon has always been enough for anything, but never has been required. If you had the choice between an extra boomkin or a dps doing thousands more damage it's pretty obvious.

I wish I didn't have eyes to read this. You are so out of the loop that it can't even be described.

[Needlezz]

Fully Agree with restoring power to boomies despite not playing them. Both of boomies in my core expressed desire to move on from the class if the changes don't get reverted as they kill the competitive aspect of the spec.

This realm is a decade old and on exact same content for around 8 years now, yet the server is still somewhat active, and that's because the people are enjoying what we have. Doing changes like these are harmful to longevity of the server. Not to say all the changes are bad, for example warrior recently got the oil of immolation interaction removed, and even tho I am a warrior player and that change hurts my damage, I think it's a healthy one because it now means that average player can play the class to its potential without sinking multiple thousands of gold for each raid.

But changes like the boomie and rogue one are just pointless, they kill people's desire to play the class, or their desire to perform good since competition is gone. Please consider reverting them since finding players that want to push the class forward is harder if class feels objectively worse to play.

[jmsvanbuskirk]

I think an important point here is this server is extremely old. When you have no time limit it allows players to maximize and optimize every aspect of the game. There's a very big difference between a progression group and a full BIS ideal group which is actually quite normal here. The gameplay can be pushed even further. The guides from regular WotLK become obsolete in many ways.

This creates problems. My observation is I see players so over geared that they bypass mechanics and don't learn how the game works. I also see players maintain tactics that can be bypassed because they are so over geared. This is why the previous commenters don't know what I'm talking about. And that's a valid point. The metric on these servers is not the same all throughout. One guild is struggling to kill LoD while another is farming it 7 days a week and tweaking every aspect of the game to have damage uptime and efficiency or another guild that's doing solo tank solo heal 0% buff pushing the limits of the game.

One spec becomes variable in this environment. One group melts blood beasts where they stand, another group needs 3 boomies to typhoon or they wipe I guess. One group uses mind flay to control spheres to maximize dps uptime and another has a boomkin flopping around like a pancake fighting for its life. I lost my train of thought. I was trying to bring that point back to how boomkins having a little lower dps plays into that. I suppose it's just all conjecture. Oh well.

[Allylilith]

I think an important point here is this server is extremely old. When you have no time limit it allows players to maximize and optimize every aspect of the game. There's a very big difference between a progression group and a full BIS ideal group which is actually quite normal here. The gameplay can be pushed even further. The guides from regular WotLK become obsolete in many ways.

This creates problems. My observation is I see players so over geared that they bypass mechanics and don't learn how the game works. I also see players maintain tactics that can be bypassed because they are so over geared. This is why the previous commenters don't know what I'm talking about. And that's a valid point. The metric on these servers is not the same all throughout. One guild is struggling to kill LoD while another is farming it 7 days a week and tweaking every aspect of the game to have damage uptime and efficiency or another guild that's doing solo tank solo heal 0% buff pushing the limits of the game.

One spec becomes variable in this environment. One group melts blood beasts where they stand, another group needs 3 boomies to typhoon or they wipe I guess. One group uses mind flay to control spheres to maximize dps uptime and another has a boomkin flopping around like a pancake fighting for its life. I lost my train of thought. I was trying to bring that point back to how boomkins having a little lower dps plays into that. I suppose it's just all conjecture. Oh well.

To anyone who is here for the boomie topic, ignore this. this is absolutely irrelevant for that and not worth reading, but for jmsvanbuskirk specifically:

Wrong assumption #1: beasts dying faster being better. most, if not all speccs achieve their optimal dmg output with beasts surviving longer, as it increases the effectiveness of dots and reduces overkilling on them, so extending their time of being safely alive is an overall dps gain.
Wrong assumption #2: priest doing sphere leads to better dps than boomies. this ignores that if boomie does the spheres and prot pala soaks, there is no need for a sp, leading to overall more dmg again

This threat has gone from me suspecting that you are detached from the game to confirming that you are clueless.
I dont know if you do this on purpose to distract from the topic, but in either case, I will stop answering to you from here on out, because your last 10 comments brought nothing of value to anyone here regarding this topic, I am sorry. If you think that it's because you brought a great new argument that I cannot refute, feel free to send me a dm and we can discuss it there, but I do no longer want to waste other people's time on top of our's by refuting irrelevant claims of you

[Bloodreina9]

One group melts blood beasts where they stand, another group needs 3 boomies to typhoon or they wipe I guess. One group uses mind flay to control spheres to maximize dps uptime and another has a boomkin flopping around like a pancake fighting for its life. I lost my train of thought. I was trying to bring that point back to how boomkins having a little lower dps plays into that. I suppose it's just all conjecture. Oh well.

I guess I am joining people who dont want you to even bother answering them anymore, because your comments are just off-topic with only one goal and thats make fun of others while you have no idea about currently active guilds at every realm. You said you are interested in this topic but so far I saw you only attacking people who came to support topic. I understand its discussion and people are allowed to agree or disagree but come on do you rly need to humiliate everyone who is not same opinion as you? Are we in kindergarten to mock every person who does not follow me?

So pls keep topic clear without pointless attacks at people for voicing their opinion even if its supporting post or not.

[jsaise]

I would really appreciate it, if reverting this change could be considered. I agree with all the points mentioned and I think it would prove to the community that warmane listens and that changes arent taken arbitrarily as some people started claiming lately, but that they follow the logic of making the game better, as providing and playing the best possible version of wotlk is what everyone is here for at the end of the day.

[jmsvanbuskirk]

To anyone who is here for the boomie topic, ignore this. this is absolutely irrelevant for that and not worth reading, but for jmsvanbuskirk specifically:

Wrong assumption #1: beasts dying faster being better. most, if not all speccs achieve their optimal dmg output with beasts surviving longer, as it increases the effectiveness of dots and reduces overkilling on them, so extending their time of being safely alive is an overall dps gain.
Wrong assumption #2: priest doing sphere leads to better dps than boomies. this ignores that if boomie does the spheres and prot pala soaks, there is no need for a sp, leading to overall more dmg again

This threat has gone from me suspecting that you are detached from the game to confirming that you are clueless.
I dont know if you do this on purpose to distract from the topic, but in either case, I will stop answering to you from here on out, because your last 10 comments brought nothing of value to anyone here regarding this topic, I am sorry. If you think that it's because you brought a great new argument that I cannot refute, feel free to send me a dm and we can discuss it there, but I do no longer want to waste other people's time on top of our's by refuting irrelevant claims of you

These were points you brought up actually. I argued you only need one boomkin in the raid and the damage buff is irrelevant to bringing a boomkin. You were the one that made the point of bringing more boomkins because of variables that had nothing to do with damage.

My response above highlights the fact a person can execute a mechanic many different ways. People play at different levels of the game. And ya I did poke fun at you because you play at a lower level of the game than I have. As I've said though your own argument of taking more boomkins is just conjecture. You didn't make a point at all toward why this bug should be unfixed.

And to call me clueless about these mechanic approaches is calling many successful guilds clueless. How silly of Progress on their world first kill to use a shadow priest. Blood Legion on world first Bane just out of their minds. Clearly low performers. Fastest speed run Lordaeron buffed content shadow priest on orbs. Top ladder guild Fade has their video posted of a 1.5 minute DBS kill with no typhoon on beasts. All these guilds run one boomkin. And they don't run them for their damage.

You've brought arguments in this thread. You're not backing them up. None of you are. Next year on Onyxia we will be running the one boomkin roster spot like everyone else. The damage isn't a variable in that. The game will continue as it always has and will now emulate the original experience as it should. And we can rejoice in having a more accurate server, not the dream land of a lie.

[Ricky5]

The overwhelming majority of this server asks for the OoC change to be reverted. In addition to everything the others have said, its impact is exclusively negative. Since the change, it's very noticeable how many players are running low or out of mana during fights because now there are 2 extra replenishment targets. While the change fixed a bug, it created exclusively negative impacts on the player experience with the tradeoff of fixing an overall benign error. At the core of it, it seems like a change for change's sake.

This topic and thread specifically has so much engagement (#5 in replies, #105 in views in Suggestions & Changes at the time of this comment) and it's only been 3 days. It's overwhelmingly supported by the server outside of the two accounts. It's been established that Warmane does not exclusively and strictly follow either 3.3.5a or Classic, but seek to create the best product and experience for its players. With that, then could we consider the impact of this change, weighing the benefits to the community against its detriments? This reversion being so popular and widely supported, could we - real & active players - get the Warmane developer's attention and consideration on this topic?

[Shred]

This topic and thread specifically has so much engagement (#5 in replies, #105 in views in Suggestions & Changes at the time of this comment) and it's only been 3 days. It's overwhelmingly supported by the server outside of the two accounts.

I don't support the change. Make that three accounts.

[jmsvanbuskirk]

The overwhelming majority of this server asks for the OoC change to be reverted. In addition to everything the others have said, its impact is exclusively negative. Since the change, it's very noticeable how many players are running low or out of mana during fights because now there are 2 extra replenishment targets. While the change fixed a bug, it created exclusively negative impacts on the player experience with the tradeoff of fixing an overall benign error. At the core of it, it seems like a change for change's sake.

This topic and thread specifically has so much engagement (#5 in replies, #105 in views in Suggestions & Changes at the time of this comment) and it's only been 3 days. It's overwhelmingly supported by the server outside of the two accounts. It's been established that Warmane does not exclusively and strictly follow either 3.3.5a or Classic, but seek to create the best product and experience for its players. With that, then could we consider the impact of this change, weighing the benefits to the community against its detriments? This reversion being so popular and widely supported, could we - real & active players - get the Warmane developer's attention and consideration on this topic?

Sorry that was me. I created all the replies and made all these people flame at me. I'm not sure a few upset chicken players really accounts for the whole server. Angry voices from a minority can be loud. Content players don't rush to the forums to speak their mind. If it was really that bad we would've expected a legion of hundreds of players spamming everywhere, but I don't think most people even noticed. And like I said I don't think it actually matters anyway because reverting the fix just goes against the philosophy of this place.

[ImTheKnight]

I totally agree with what has been said and yes last few days even i noticed the diffrence but didnt realize it was "fixed nerfed" it felt worse then befor so it would be good to reverse this change to make them as they were couse that was not needed indeed.

[Painbih2]

I tremendously agree with OP