Do you realise alot of people are sick of 2.4.3 ?
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Member
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Member
We just onesbot brutallus after being stuck on him before nerf.
Also Felmyst went down super easy.
Gauntlet was stupid easy, not even worth the name gauntlet honestly. The exploding imps are supposed to be scary but they took less than 10% of tank HP away. You even drop combat in between so you can simply res the people dumb enough to die from cleave.
I played with a different guild last week that downed Brutallus pre-nerf without a sweat but was unable to kill Felmyst. This was also reflected by the PvE leaderboard where 80+ guilds killed Brutallus but only 40+ killed Felmyst. (And to be fair I still think they were perfectly doable even for mediocre guilds like us)
Without a doubt that's not just a boss HP change that happened here.
Maybe there were some unintended side-effects from increasing boss HP that messed up ability timers and stuff because it's definitely easier now, incoming dmg is much more predictable and fewer crazy dmg spikes.
I know it's what we signed up for so I'm not complaining or demanding anything.
But I had more fun before nerf for sure.
It's the final raid of the xpac, I think it's fine for it to be hard.
It makes sense to nerf Kael and Vashj because they were essentially gatekeeping later content.
It makes sense to nerf BT because you kinda need that gear to make SWP possible.
But SWP is not gatekeeping anyone or anything. There is nothing after SWP. It's fine if you dont clear it.
I hope maybe for WOTLK you will consider keeping the final raid more difficult.
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Forum Veteran
I would really implore you to not make this a pattern throughout wotlk.
It's fine to cater to more serious raiders who want a challenge with frostmourne/lordaeron values, or cater to more casual players who just want to play the raids with icecrown values, that is your decision to make. But swapping from one to the other halfway through the tier really alienates the guilds in the middle who will get their progression disrupted by the nerfs.
If nerfing must be done, then I think frequent and incremental nerfs of 5-10% (similar to how the ICC buff is implemented) would be a lot more well received than the drastic ~30% nerf we saw in Sunwell.
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Member
Correct me if I am wrong, but the 3 frostmourne seasons didnt have any of these issues? I remember naxx still being considered easy by most guilds for example, and as far as I know that were lordaeron values, not icecrown, which are sometimes extremely different:
I checked for example anub'rekhan now, who has 6.7million Hp on icecrown and 14.3million Hp on Lordaeron, that's a 113%hp buff. Every warmane player is familiar with wotlk mechanics and wotlk raids, having the 2009 unbuffed values would imo extremely trivialize the content and remove any feeling of progression, but rather feel like a few months wait for 1 raid night of rushing through the new raid and then waiting for the next release again.
raiding weekly to gear up and improve, to turn a 40sec steamroll fight into a 32sec steamroll fight is simply not fun, while raiding weekly to go from not passing bosses into clearing the full raid in few hours is.
for example mount hyjal over the last months was the worst raiding experience I have ever had, simply because it was so extremely undertuned that it felt like it literally didnt matter if I was even playing my character or not, it felt like a weekly loot chest which takes 1hr to open. nobody wants that for wrath raids, espacially if frostmourne difficulty the last 3 seasons seemed to hit that sweet spot pretty well, while being over 100% buffed
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Member
You could have been progressively nerfing it by few % each ID until you hit the sweetspot where enough guilds can clear it instead of nerfing all the way to the ground and making it trivial. First post-nerf ID is not even over yet and for example Muru already went from being killed by 8 guilds to 41 with next ID probably being 50+. There is no difference between good and bad guilds anymore.
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Forum Veteran
The whole pre-nerf and post-nerf nonsense is a TBC thing. Which you guys all got confused anyway because pre-nerf was actually like Dragon's Breath on Shade of Aran while here it meant pre WotLK values. Nobody said a word about KT or Vashj pre-nerf, but Sunwell is the point of discussion? Anyway, that silly stuff is over now.
WotLK is just the game it always has been. It has hard modes and heroic modes built into it. It's a progression realm so you won't get your 6.5k gs BIS toon to cheese the content. I've played Ulduar a number of times on Icecrown and NO these people do not know that raid. Clearing Firefighter with less than 5k gs would be impossible with that player base and yet we're going to attempt it here. This is a different game than the other realms, and it's a server that's going to have a whole lot of new players as well.
Naxx tier will be easy as it should be. Everything else beyond that will take some work. Ulduar in particular kills servers and we all know that. Probably one of the best raids ever made in this game though.
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Member
i don't think WOTLK release so soon... probably never :D no im joking...
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Member
This seems reasonable, if you guys count that the 20 people in thia god forsaken thread will form 20 guilds and have enough people to fill them.
As someone who has played on buffed servers a lot, and seeing people get their way with buffs vs nerfs, you would completely bury your server (as I assume you realized you did early October) if you release buffed content.
Keep it nerfed content. It is like that for a reason. Do not overestimate your player base of lazy donators. Nor the cry outs of a handful hardcore people who are playing on the wrong server. What you can do instead is give them a Hardcore realm. Just like Stormforge. Let them kill their own enthusiasm on their own. Do not let them sink everybody else's for their misguided ambitions to play a 20 year old game in a min-maxing way.
Nothing against those players, but a server is an environment. Based on how you set up the environment, you make it habitable for certain player bases. Onyxia is already far away from hardcore sweaty player base environment. The admins would be wise to keep it that way or face an extinction by Ulduar. One does not simply change the environment mid-progress. The player base won't be there.
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Forum Veteran
Server will have trouble in/after Ulduar no matter what when it comes to player amount. Some obvious buffs, like in Naxxramas, is necessary though. Even Blizzard realized this in WotLK Classic and I suspect Warmane has more experience with WotLK than modern Blizzard does.
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Member
Some people think Lordaeron (buffed) difficulty is "just a little harder" and with some extra effort and commitment their guild will be able to do all the content, making it a more fun experience.
If you haven't played Lordaeron, let me tell you that +90% guilds play for months or years and they know that they will NEVER be able to do the harder content, not even close. It's like something that is there for other select people to do and has nothing to do with them, like if it was another game. Most guilds consdier their final goal to kill 8/12 heroic bosses or whatever, the rest of the progress doesn't even exist. BIS lists don't work for most people because the truly BIS gear is unattainable and you have to build your own BIS lists according to the bosses your guild can (and ever will) kill.
There are few guilds that go past 8/12 heroics in ICC25, and heroic lich king is killed only by the top guilds. Heroic TOGC is pretty hard and Ulduar hardmodes are really punishing even on ICC gear. Most people that played in Lordaeron for a really long time have never been even close to do the hardest content, i have known people that raided regularly for years and their guilds have never even tried to kill the final bosses because they know there is no point.
I know that sounds awesome for experienced players and guilds, but it's something that can't work in a seasonal realm where phases last a few months and the normal thing to expect would be to clear the current raid half-way through the phase and farm the best loot for a couple weeks until next phase. In Lordaeron maybe a 1 heroic boss progress takes a month or two or three (if not more). Here is no time for that.Edited: October 14, 2025
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I worked perfectly fine for 3 seasons of frostmourne and pretty much every guild on lordaeron does 8hc and dozens do even 12hc. most of the content has even been solotanked/solohealed or could be done as under 20people by actual top guilds. I know some guys that started playing the game a year ago or less and are in 12hc farming guilds
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Forum Veteran
Lordaeron has been around forever. Onyxia will run this phase for maybe 3-4 months. You'd be lucky to get any full BIS toon out of that time frame. One Shadowmourne maybe. So it's not an accurate comparison. Onyxia will also not have access to end game gear for any of the previous raids which is the majority of the content.
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Member
and the 3 seasons of frostmourne are a perfect comparison, its literally the exact same thing as onyxia, just that it didnt start off tbc. I see no reason to have a difficulty difference, let alone such an extreme one compared to frostmourne
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Forum Veteran
I'd just re-iterate my previous point that it doesn't really matter if the content is buffed or blizzlike - there are different audiences on Onyxia that would find either option appealing.
The worst of both worlds would be to release the content buffed, then nerf it into the ground after a few weeks - as we have seen with Sunwell.
Pick a set of values to go with and stick with them. Personally I would prefer the harder encounters of Lordaeron/Frostmourne, but I would also enjoy getting to chill and just play the game with the Icecrown encounters and I understand that this is probably better for the general population.
If indicators show that nerfs must be implemented on a specific boss or raid, implement them in smaller 5-10% increments with more time in between. That way, a guild might be able to kill the boss they've been struggling on, but aren't suddenly breezing through the entire raid.
Releasing with Frostmourne/Lordaeron values and nerfing to Icecrown values will be an absolute disaster for longer progression cycles like Ulduar and ICC and I would urge the devs to not go down this road.
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Overwatcher
Why? You say a bunch of times how it's "the worst" and "absolute disaster," but not once explain why.
It gives a brief chance for try-hards to have a go at the pre-nerf values, then moves on to post-nerf so everyone else gets the chance to complete the content. What's the "absolute disaster" about that?
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