So my pet project from all the Xmas events was a brand new shiny DK tank.
He's gotten all his t10, EoF pieces, EoT pieces and so on and I crafted the rest with blacksmithing, using Primos from the Snowmen event. All in all he's looking quite swell at 5.7k gs.
So the downside of gearing a DK without stepping foot into a raid even once? I'm lacking experience in playing it. I've asked for help from guildies, read the guides, compiled my knowledge of DKs back on retail (which was a LONG time ago) and ended up with a list of questions.
So first up, ALLLOOOOOTT of user choice and flexibility in talents. Many opinions and preferences too, hardly anyone uses the same build because of this, and that's not to say any build is worse than another. That's not what i want to focus on however, but i feel talents play are a relevant factor that we need to discuss to properly answer the following questions, but i'll sum it up at the end of the post.
So questions! Here they are.
1)Icy Touchin threat rotation:I'm led to believe it's insanely OP. Is this just on wamane due to a bug or was it like that on retail? With that said, how does Icy Touch compare threatwise (Assuming spell hit cap and expertise hardcap, for simplicity) to 1xDeathStrike, or to 2x HeartStrike? ignoring the disease component, obviously.
If spamming Icy Touch and Heart Strike only, what on earth do i do with my unholy runes? Is it a Higher TPS rotation to just use purely blood and frost runes only, and put unholy runes on the backburner merely to refresh PS? (Speaking about Threat rotation here, not Healing rotation without would obviously use Death Strike instead of Icy touch).
2)Death Rune Mastery talent: I personally do enjoy using this talent, I consider it pretty damned good in AoE situations, but can lead to some very fluid single target rotations, when swapping between self healing (Death Strike) Rotations to other rotations such as threat-building/ disease refreshing / Picking up newly spawned adds / popping defensives that use runes.
In my current build, I'm dropping Morbidity for it as I rarely ever use DC single target(Runes strikes only, and i don't take Lichborne) and although DND is OP,
I find i can manage on AoE with a with something along the idea of
first set of runes: Dnd > IT > PS > Pest
2nd set of runes runes: BBx2 > DSx2 >
3rd set of runes: 6x BB or Pest
Thoughts? Viable? Or is that inferior to just DnD every 15 sec, as I find it difficult to save up the runes for DnD mid fight though, as it costs 3 runes, and more specificall 1 of each which is hard to align rune cooldowns for without BT/ERW or like ~5 seconds of downtime.
3)Glyph of Disease: Worthwhile at all? My glyphs are foccused on ICC raiding, so I'm using Vampiric Touch + Dark command + *3rd glyph here, currently, Disease.*
My Retail days were spent playing a frost DK, mostly dps, I dabbled in tanking, but true to my DPS DK roots I found Glyph of Disease gave me some comfort/familiarity with my rotation, after picking up DK again after so many years, and with a new alien spec and rotation. Well, I'm over that now. It's time to optimize and learn the proper way of playing - So that said, what's the viable list / recommended 3rd glyph i should take? Why does Glyph of Icy touch not appear in any guides if Icy Touch is so OP for threat? That said, would Icy Touch glyph be higher TPS than RuneStrike/HeartStrike? OR would better philosophy be that during Threat rotation our TPS output is high enough, so better to shore up our weaknesses and increase the threat of our Healing Rotation with Death Strike? I know Rune Tap is an option as well, but i dismissed it as i doubt my raid healers would need me to use it, and as a newby dk i'm more worried about threat.
4)Overall and how it affects talents:So combining all of the above factors: i've got a subsection of additional questions:
If I prioritize Icy Touch in my Threat rotation, is black ice 5/5 recommended? How about gearing past 8% melee hit for Icy Touch, with regards to Virulence/gear/gems?
I dropped Morbidity in my current spec in favour of Death Rune Mastery, as I find it very difficult to save up 3 runes mid fight to afford a DnD, as i posted above I rather enjoy doing my 6x BB/pest expenditure instead, with just 1 DnD to cover the lack of ramup time. In AoE Situation, considering i have 4p T10, would replacing Death Rune Mastery 3/3 in favour of Morbidity 3/3 and adjusting my playstyle result in more successful AoE aggro-holding?
Also, if Icy Touch is so much threat, How's it look for Dropping Heart Strike talent completely? How does Bloodstrike compare in single target Threat to Heart Strike? What if the TPS gain from HS lead to a more comfortable threat lead allowing for more time spent using Selhealing Rotation?
That's about all i can think of for now, but I'll edit more in later as they arise.
EDIT:
New Question about Death Striking!
How often to use it, and how often to reserve it?
I guess this idea has few different philosophies/approaches to it:
Assuming that we're at 100% HP in all scenarios:
1)Holding 2 Death strikes in reserve no matter what: leaving UUFF open waiting for a boss to slap us REALLY hard then 2x DeathStrike instantly.
This approach probably leads to extremely low overall threat/and wasting alot of overall strikes in the long term. Maybe viable for bosses with huge Damage Bursts? If threat isn't an issue...
2)Holding 1 Death strike in reserve no matter what: Using 1 death strike even while at 100% but hold the 2nd in reserve.
Basically my 4 used runes(BBUF) will tick away on CD these 2 runes(UF). I've had some scenarios when 10 seconds will pass by and I won't have found the opportunity to Death Strike, leading to a completely wasted rune cycle.
3)Delaying Death Strikes but without holding them in reserve:
Trying to use Heartstrikes/Horns/Defensives first but once there's nothing else to do settle with Deathstriking while at 100% HP without hesitating, because, well, more overall strikes.
4)Spamming the living daylights out of the button cuz who cares about heals. - 90% of Bdk's population unite! Lets be Baddies cuz we can. xD
I guess it's a balance of the idea that more often you keep your runes rolling on CD - The more overall Strikes you'll land per boss fight. More Strikes = more TPS, DPS, and... depending on luck/timings, maaaayyyybeee more self heals?
But what do I do if I'm on 100% HP and my last Unholy and Frost runes are active - but my 2 Blood runes are coming off cooldown in say like... 3 or 4 seconds? Is it best to sit the 4 seconds waiting for damage intake, or hit the button and let the runes go onto CD?
I guess it's very situational, but its definitely worth staying aware of this type of idea isn't it?
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Member
Blood Dk Tanking (advanced!) questions. WotLK
Edited: January 5, 2016
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Member
I am not master dk tank, but there are my 2 cents:
Icy Touch has an extra 10x threat multiplier I believe.
I like using death runes, because they provide versatility. Need more threat? -> Icy Touch. Just got hit? -> Death Strike. None of those conditions and you got runes for Death Strike in reserve? -> Heart Strike.
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Member
Icy Touch & Rune Strike are your main threat abilities
Glyph of Disease is a preference
Icy Touch is a spell, so getting past melee hit just for that is not a smart idea
Don't bother with AoE, but DnD is also a threat ability
Heart Strike gives no threat so go ahead and drop it
Remember to keep your diseases up 24/7 so your threat and healing actually work. No diseases no cake.
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Banned
First of all, gz on your DK. I've only done the cow level once, the other times I wiped and got saved for 3-4 cows and I could never get a good group for snowman farming.
1) Icy Touch has a 7x threat multiplier while in Frost pres in addition to the usual 2x threat multiplier in Frost pres. As a result, one IT can do between 15-20k threat and is the best tool to be used for starting the boss fight or for picking up adds. You will have 3/3 Imp IT no matter what not only because of the added threat, but mainly due to the +6% attack speed reduction, which makes it equal to other similar effects (Thunder Clap, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just). If you're in a dire need of threat (you've got a DPS who is intent on wiping the raid, sitting on 115% of your threat and suddenly all Rogues and Hunters went braindead), then you can proceed to use your 4x D runes for IT, then Blood Tap into another IT, then the 2x F runes will come off cooldown for 2 more ITs, which makes it 7x15k=105k threat in 7x1.5sec=10.5 seconds - this is without the Rune Strike which you can queue independently from other abilities. Not even Frost DKs with 0/3 Subversion can out-aggro that.
But is it good to use this as a cookie cutter rotation? No. Without DRM you can only do as much as 2 ITs. With DRM you're basically reverting all the D runes with that IT spam, you're losing your Blood Plague, and you're removing Death Strike's self-heals or Heart Strike from the equation. Only use it as an emergency if your DPS cannot (read - will not) drop their aggro for one reason or another (read - they don't know or care how). The rest of the time use HS for burnout as it deals many many times more damage than IT. "But why would I be concerned with damage as a tank", you would ask? Well, why would you be concerned with threat if you have a steady lead already? As a tank, I usually top the meters in Heroics with around 4k DPS and 40-50% of the total dmg. I pretty much carry the tanking, the DPS and even the healing on myself with around 60% of the healing on me being self-heals. Do not concern yourself with threat if you're already leading. Any TPS above the current 100% aggro is a waste. In conclusion, don't opt in for Black Ice - you simply don't need it as Blood.
2) On Death Rune Mastery, you got it all correct - "can lead to some very fluid single target rotations, when swapping between self healing (Death Strike) Rotations to other rotations such as threat-building/ disease refreshing / Picking up newly spawned adds / popping defensives that use runes".
You don't pick Morbidity for DC. DC barely even figures in your Recount, very rarely from Sudden Doom procs and if you somehow miraculously have free GCDs and are over 60-80 RP. Morbidity is picked mainly for DnD's CD reduction. You're saying you're fine with AoE threat as it is... How to you manage quick pulls in Heroics then? And how do you OT LK without Morbidity? Just don't torture yourself and pick the talent. Yes, it requires some discipline to save up the 3 runes it requires, but it's nothing too hard once you get used to watching DnD's CD and your runes' CD. DnD has an insane threat ratio, has a 10 sec duration and with Morbidity it has a 15 sec cooldown. Just think about it.
3) You ask very good questions and I like this. Yes, the glyphs for Vamp Blood and Dark Command are your first two majors. Glyph of Disease can indeed look tempting, but it is only really good in AoE situations. I do not pick it but instead opt for [Tab]bing between targets and using Pestilence so that I never lose diseases on the target I must focus. Now, when it comes to single-target it's a different situation. Pestilence refreshes Icy Talons and refreshes your diseases, re-calculating their new values at that time in the process. But that's it. By using Glyph of Disease, you're trading IT+PS for Pest+HS, which is a DPS gain. But not an aggro gain. As we discussed above, IT has far superior threat for DK tanks so it is best if you just re-apply the diseases through IT+PS.
The single-target rotation, which I use is:
1st cycle - IT>PS>HS>HS>DS>HoW
2nd cycle - DS>HS>HS>HS>HS
Glyph of Rune Tap is a nice utility glyph which seems very tasty, but most of the time you won't be able to make use of it. Rune Tap is used mostly for your own self-healing and death prevention and using it for raid healing will complicate your decision making heavily. Glyph of Icy Touch is not used because it only increases the damage done by the disease, and that's not where the threat comes from. It comes from IT's initial damage.
So this leaves you with two glyphs, both of which are threat-oriented - Glyph of Rune Strike and Glyph of Death Strike. Which of these two you will pick depends on your playstyle. If you find yourself using Death Strike almost entirely for your FFUU / DDDD runes, then Death Strike can be good. If you don't spam it all the time though, Rune Strike is better, seeing as it is a far superior threat source and should be queued all the time.
Here is the build which I'm using.
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Member
<3 taralej
Beasting it on these forums. Thanks for taking so much time on edumacating us newbies.
What you posted makes sense and is very intuitive. I actually did a few RDF's and found myself missing the fact I didn't take morbidity, so it's back in my spec, as I said, I'm so new to DK tanking at this point, the toon is literally just 4 days old. (Well, it was 80 since moltdown's 5 free 80s, but i never got it out of the starter zone until 4 days ago).
The mechanics behind Icy Touch now make sense to me - and that clears alot of questions I had indeed. I thought I was alone on the DRM front - all I see is people posting they don't use it because it's unnecessary, but it's nice to see I'm not alone out there.
On the glyphs front I'll try out both Rune Strike and Death Strike, to see what I like better, I have a scribe so I've got access to infinite glyphs for basically free - I'll likely carry 20 RS/DS/RT glyphs in my bag at all times and swap them on the fly depending what i feel like.
I'm still in such early days of DK tanking I've not even developed a particular playstyle yet. All I know is I've spent way too much gold on respeccing like 20 times in the last 2 days rofl.
I've honestly never been a huge fan of Arpen on Tanks, especially when there's non physical damage in the equation as well, so I guess my take on the talent build would now be something along these lines (mind you, this is fluid, i've been changing talents builds constantly, and most likely will keep doing so until i find my preferred build)
My newby spec
Feedback is welcomed (Oh god what have I done, I hope this doesn't turn into a Talent Wars thread)
I wish to keep virulence and Spell Deflection in there as they seem like good choices, as said, i kind of want to avoid Blood Gorged just for now, so i've opted for Icy Reach instead. I've never taken Sudden doom, as I don't really like the deathcoils or in any way think they're a reliable source of threat, even despite heartstrike hitting 2 targets.
edit: i should mention that i'm still trying to get used to blood's rotation and the rhythm behind using runes, and as such i keep virulence to prevent spells from missing as i find that an unnecessary hardship that i'd simply rather not have to deal with, whenever possible. Once i get more comfortable it's likely i wont mind missing a few here and there.
I suppose my homework should be learning how to DnD more often in combat without button mashing and screwing over the necessary runes while AoE tanking.
... and just quietly down here I'll mention that i must confess, I never really liked healing a Blood DK as a healer, I always thought they seems squishy and prone to huge damage spikes >.> Hence my reluctance to roll a DK tank earlier. I attribute this to the fact that I've yet to see a DK who properly manages his CD's and self heals? I guess DK tanking isn't as straight forward as bear tanking or paladin tanking with which i've had more experience with.Edited: January 3, 2016
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Banned
BDKs are the squishiest of the 3 specs. That's why you see the big damage spikes. They compensate this by having the largest health pool, very strong tank talents & cooldowns, and self-heals. Will of the Necropolis, Vampiric Blood, Improved Death Strike and Rune Tap are all pretty strong, with the first two not even requiring that much interaction on the player side. However if you're only relying on these two (as most BDKs do), you'll soon experience first-hand why healers hate healing BDK tanks. You have to make the most from your spec to compensate for your squishiness. As I said in another thread, if you don't compensate with timed self-heals and cooldowns, you're just a weaker version of a bear tank and there's no reason for a raid leader to prefer you over one such.
- Icy Reach seems nice for picking adds on VDW and LK or Dark Nuclei on BPC, but that's pretty much all you're going to use it for. Doing those things without Icy Reach is manageable and this is why I don't deem this talent worthy.
- Spell Deflection sounds like a nice talent at first, until you realize that your parry is actually only around 15-20%. So you're investing 3 TPs into a low-chance spell-oriented talent, which doesn't even work on boss spells. Don't do it. If you don't like Sudden Doom that much, you can put 1/3 Scent of Blood.
- Virulence is nice because it lets you slip with just 5% hit rating for your Dark Command and other abilities not to miss, on this I can't argue.
- Blood Gorged is good for several reasons. First of all, a very minimal part of your damage as Blood is non-physical - that's diseases which total for around 10% of your DPS, DnD which is out of the question here, and the occasional Death Coil. Everything else - Rune Strike, melee, Heart Strike and Death Strike - is physical. And then there's another thing which people somehow always forget - Blood Gorged gives not only 10% ArP but also +10% damage.Edited: January 3, 2016
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Member
Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, Spell Deflection does indeed look very weak now you put it that way, 17.17%(on my dk atm) chance to reduce a spell's damage by 45%. I guess I fell for a classic nooby mistake >.>
I see why sudden doom is necessary now, as a point required to reach Blood Gorged. Looking over the options, (Sudden Doom vs Subversion vs Spell Deflect) I decided Sudden Doom was the most viable considering I intend to not take Might of Morgraine due to my lack of crit chance.
This is what i've arrived at - Icy Reach and Virulence being the 2 choices I may respec out of later.
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Banned
Exactly! ;) And it only works on some spells. It doesn't even work on all direct spells, like the tooltip says.
Yup, you're correct about picking Sudden Doom towards Blood Gorged. Subversion is very weak from a tank point of view. It's 9% crit chance to Heart Strike for 3 talent points. No, thank you. Spell Deflection we already discussed, and the good thing about Sudden Doom is that it can also proc from Heart Strike's "cleave". Still, maxing it is only good from a DPS point of view, as there are simply better tank talents than that.
Not taking Might of Mograine is a thing most Blood tanks do, actually. However, you have some pretty decent crit only from raid buffs and auras, so MoM is actually a lot of threat.
Another thing worth mentioning is Scent of Blood as an alternative to Sudden Doom. You'll see a lot of people taking 1/3 into it, and at first that will seem sub-optimal. Scent of Blood is a very decent RP-generating talent on encounters with trash or a fast-attacking boss, but apart from that it's kinda weak. Also, you don't really starve on RP because the only thing you spend it for as Blood is Rune Strike (Frost also has Frost Strike, Unholy has Death Coil). However, that is until you realize that on Warmane it can proc from everything, including environmental damage, trinket procs - pretty much everything, even Hearthstone.
Seems decent. You may feel that Icy Reach is not so useful in the future and put the points from it into Blood Gorged. Virulence is a talent you may decide to keep longer, unless you get Cryptmaker which gives exactly 3% hit, will solve your Hit problems, and will make Virulence unnecessary, allowing you to move the points into 3/3 MoM. And it also gives ArP :DEdited: January 3, 2016
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Forum Veteran
It is good to see another DK, not sad piece of health without a clue.
Don't sweat AoE threat so much, especially if you have good guild raid. I just drop that DnD whenever its off CD and spread diseases and it is all good.
Disease glyph is epic in way, you just don't have to bother, "boop" Pestilence in any situation and you have diseases. Use that U+F for Death strike, or DnD. It gives +20% "Lay back and chill".
DRM is really good, just don't have to sweat about things. Gives at least +30% "Lay back and chill"
I use Icy Talons and Rune strike sucks up lots of RP, at beginning you can find yourself starved and not able to use CDs at instant, so a bit focus on that, so you have that 20 RP before timers say boss will nuke somthing. It will come automatically with time, especially if you have those "Lay back and chill" talents. (1/3 blood scent comes in handy here, as you get 10RP whenever you skip RS, and that will happen, and during BL more than once). And you still have to use those 40 points to get to WotN in blood.
Also I use improved Icy touch range talent, and I tried to drop it. Only then I realized how much I need it, because running around to get in range is not giving you any "Lay back and chill" points.
+Virulence adds to "chill factor" as your Pestilence/IT will never miss if you get that 11%spell hit+virulence+debuff on boss. Especially if you use Disease Glyph.
Get those "core"(trinity/imp. DS/vamp/WotN) talents and build around them. If you like to min-max and play stressful with sweaty palms or stack some "Lay back and chill", that is up to you.
Either way you can tank any boss in game in any role.Edited: January 4, 2016
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Member
That's actually an extremely good point, a bunch of the talents are EXACTLY purely just for Lay back and Chill, and that's the reason why I might just use them xD
Esepcially in early days of DK tanking, I'm still lacking the muscle memory and experience that more veteran DKs would surely have. There's something to be said for "sub-optimal" tanking if it lets you perform better as a player, due to easier rotation or what not - better performance may be achieved in the short term at the cost of a slightly lower skill ceiling - but once my skill level starts to near the limits imposed by taking too many sit back and chill talents/glyphs i can always respec into a more "sweaty palms" builds.
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Yes, it is working properly. Keep in mind, though, Icy Touch is a single target only spell. Which means you'll have to use other spells in order to maximize your multi-target threat.
Unholy runes, obviously, will be your least used spell as a Blood DK. The uses for it as are follows; Death Strike, Plague Strike, Death and Decay and Army of the Dead.
Unholy runes, normally you will only use for Heart Strike (Plague Strike;which it gains damage with more diseases on the target) when not using them for healing via Death Strike (increased via blood plague; Plague Strike). It doesn't have too much of an effect on your threat, but that does not mean you should forsake it - ever. It is far too important
I consider Death Rune Mastery to be a "meh" talent, personally. The only real use I see for it is using the death runes for Icy Touch spam. Which, by the time you're getting Death Strikes off, you should have already solidified your threat on the boss. So, unless you're off-tanking and/or just picking up adds, I don't consider this to be too particularly useful. Especially considering how infrequently you use the unholy runes compared to anything else.
Dropping Morbidity, in my opinion, is a mistake. You should always try to invest points in this talent as a tank. Icy Touch + Death Coil for snap-threat is just too good, and Death and Decay is too strong not to use on multi-target fights; which is made even more powerful by the talent -- the fact that you can have a 60%+ uptime on the ability.
This glyph is only useful for extended Death Striking, honestly. The infrequent use of unholy runes (which means you will almost always have at least 1 available) and the immense strength of Icy Touch's threat leads me to end up just preferring to refresh my diseases manually on the target, which in turn makes me feel the glyph is a waste. The exception would be for an Unholy tank in a multi-target situation, but that's just Unholy - not Blood.
In addition, using this glyph can lead to bad habits and low threat generation as a result. You should be regularly using Icy Touch, and this glyph will allow you to ignore the ability after the first use, which I highly recommend avoiding.
Glyph of Icy Touch does not show up in guides because it is largely unrelated to Icy Touch's actual threat generation. The glyph doesn't boost the ability, but frost fever instead. Which means that the glyph is only semi-useful for larger multi-target threat, and usually only appears on Unholy DK tanks and Frost DKs that are specced for Howling Blast usage.
Your single-target threat should be rather immense if you use Icy Touch enough. You shouldn't need any glyphs to assist with that. Glyphs, except for the standard taunt glyph, should be used on utility/CD glyphs or multi-target threat.
Dark Command, Rune Strike and Vampiric Blood would probably be my favored glyphs if I played Blood in ICC.
You are fully able to make a spec that gets 5/5 Black Ice, 3/3 Death Rune Mastery, 3/3 Morbidity, etc.
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#j0EGRIhIobobsoZhgxzZcxh
There are so many deep talents in Blood that seem like they'd be great for DPS, but just really aren't that awesome for a tank.
Examples; Might of Mograine - Probably a really strong talent, but how often do you crit as a tank? Not really all that often.
Blood Gorged - Requires you to be above 75% health to even have an effect (which, as a tank, is maybe half of an encounter), and even then, it doesn't affect your strongest sources of single target threat (Icy Touch) and multi-target threat (Death and Decay).
Blood Worms - Don't even know if they work, I haven't tested them myself recently, but they probably don't.
Sudden Doom - Just a pretty terrible talent, tbh. RNG and Death Coil by itself is hardly worth mentioning on single-target threat when compared to the bulk of your other abilities.
I don't even know why you wouldn't take Heart Strike. It costs 1 talent and it's basically free multi-target threat in an otherwise single-target ability. I don't know how it compares to Blood Strike on single-target. That's a fair amount of math that I'm not really interested in doing right now, but the damage seems really similar. Heart Strike doesn't compete with Icy Touch on your standard runes, and it adds multi-target threat when Icy Touch doesn't.
On hit, I'm sitting at exactly 264 hit on my DK. This puts me at 8.05% melee hit and 10.06% spell hit. If you add in Virulence and spell hit provided by raid buffs, this puts me at 16.06% hit, which leaves me only 1% hit off the mark. If you want to get a little extra hit so you don't miss Icy Touches, I would say that's fine, but not really necessary. The only places it really matters is when you're pulling the boss (which the chance of missing 3 Icy Touches in a row is abysmally low; Blood Tap for the Death Rune on pull) and when you're trying to pick up adds that spawn - which is why I always suggest Icy Touch + Death Coil for this - so even if you miss with one ability, there's a very high chance you'll hit with the other, in addition to the increased threat of landing 2 abilities on the target at range.
About Death Runes, I personally only enjoy death runes when they are converted from unholy or blood runes. I use my frost runes far too much to use them for anything other than frost runes. As a result, I don't particularly enjoy Death Rune Mastery, and think that both Reaping and Blood of the North (Unholy and Frost counterparts) are superior to it. But, to each their own. If you like Death Rune Mastery and make great use for it, then feel free to spec into it. The talent build I linked above includes that talent and all other talents that I feel are absolutely necessary. My only regret is that the build doesn't include the Unholy Command talent. Which, if necessary, you can invest in it by taking points out of Black Ice. The reason I made a Blood build like that is because I don't feel Dancing Rune Weapon is worth 5 talent points required to get to it which would be better spent elsewhere, in addition to the talent point required to get it.
For single target, yes. But do not forget about Death and Decay. You should use it as often as possible on multi-target fights.
Disagreed on all points.
Honestly, Glyph of Disease isn't even good for AoE. You can pestilence instead of Blood/Heart Strike once every 20 seconds or so, without the glyph, and you'll still be doing just as much multi-target disease damage as you would be with the glyph. And you're absolutely right on multi-target fights, you can just tab over to the next target and use Pestilence, giving the primary target the full duration diseases again. The glyph is only useful for single target DPS, tbh.
Personally, I prefer to open up with Blood Tap>IT>IT>IT on bosses like Lich King or Deathbringer, where I can expect most DPS to be blowing their full load on pull. After which point, I'll revert to a standardized rotation.
Don't forget about http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43533 (2sec, not 2000 lol) and http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43542.
Both of these can be useful on the right fights.
Yep, I love him too. Despite being bashed on by some people, he usually has good input and opinions to give, and is helpful without changing discussions like this into butthurt e-dick contests like we've both seen happen before with other people I won't name.
Mhm. I'm one of those people, but I do recognize it's a preference and playstyle-based opinion. If it works for you, then by all means, use it. It's in a pretty good place in the talent tree which makes it really accessible.
If you're going to spec into Dark Conviction and Bloody Vengeance, then I'd highly recommend taking your point out of Blood Gorged and putting it into Might of Mograine.
It will come to you. Eventually you'll get to the point where you'll be using Horn of Winter and Death and Decay on CD by reflex alone. Trust me when I tell you this is going to happen if you play enough, and it'll come to you all in due time. That's how I am on my DK. After playing it for so many years, it actually takes more effort for me to NOT use these abilities than it does to use them. lol
Spell Deflection I know is an RNG talent, but it's just like avoidance, honestly. I consider any form of mitigation worth pursuing, RNG or otherwise. But, at the same time, it's going to SUCK if you are poorly geared in any fashion. I'd consider the talent if you are extremely well geared (and I said consider it; based on preference; doesn't mean take it for sure). Otherwise, don't bother with it.
That's because, like taralej said, Blood is quite literally the squishiest of the DK tank specs. Frost has slightly more avoidance and more mitigation against constant magic damage, while Unholy is just flat-out sturdy in comparison to Blood. The big difference between them and Blood, though, is that Blood's ability to self-heal is incredible. I'd argue that Blood is less attractive in 25-man raids where you'll take more damage than 10-man, you'll generally have more options in terms of tanks, and the fact that you have more healers (though I suppose this makes it more irrelevant on which sorts of tanks you use so long as they can hold threat). But in a 10-man raid environment, where you're stuck with 2 healers, (in ICC, mind you) Blood just cannot be beaten simply because of how much less attention the healers have to pay to the tank there when you combine the factors of less damage taken in 10-man and the Blood DK's incredibly self-heals.
You're also right, tanking with a DK is not straight-forward at all. There's a ton of tricks and rotation priorities and timings that set a good DK apart from a bad one. The bad ones are incredibly noticeable, too. It doesn't matter what spec they are, they will get chunked by the boss they are tanking. The best of DKs can hold their own against a boss (think Sindy 10hc in phase 3) for 30+ seconds without a healer. I know this for a fact, because I've done it.
This is opposed to those DKs you absolutely HATED healing; this is the difference between a good and bad DK.
^ Boom.
Though, that doesn't mean you can't be carried like some people I know. >.>
Lich King is the encounter I build my specs around, because being honest, it is the only one in ICC that really matters currently (PP would too, but meh, bugged as fk). As Blood, there's a very good chance you will be MTing Lich King. So you're probably right on this for a Blood DK.
It definitely helps, but it doesn't eliminate the issue. It caps your Dark Command by the time you get to 5% hit, but it doesn't cap other spells even at 8% melee hit. But it does bring them much closer to the cap, 1% or so off with the talent and 3% hit from raid buffs. I know Raenel is playing Horde, but if it were Alliance, it would be a perfect hit cap for spells.
You forgot to mention Icy Touch. Icy Touch is your biggest single target threat, and DND is your biggest multi-target threat. Both of which do not benefit from the talent. Also, as squishy as Blood is, you're not going to be above the health threshold super often. If I had to guess the up-time of the talent's activity, I'd say somewhere between 40 and 60% of the fight, depending on the fight and the healers, which is my main reason for disliking it.
You should consider having some sort of Runic Power generating talent, though. Take that point from Sudden Doom and put it into Scent of Blood. Especially if you're going to bother with the Glyph of Death Strike. You'll need Runic Power for your Rune Strikes for sure, and having the extra Runic Power for Death Coils when you need them is nice. But you'll also want to replenish your Runic Power as much as possible in order to benefit that glyph. Let's also not forget that Mind Freeze, Icebound Fortitude and AMS all require Runic Power in order to be cast. You should always have 1 Runic Power talent (talent as a whole, not just 1 point, but 1 point may do the job), but never go for more than just one.
While Cryptmaker is a decent weapon, Glorenzelg is great too for the expertise it offers. Because, let me tell you, trying to min-max EHP and get your expertise cap can be really painful. But you probably already know that.
<3
You'll get there in no time. No time at all. Just make sure you are always trying to learn and don't settle for "good enough", and you'll be fine.
p.s. Holy massive wall of text Batman!
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Banned
Hai, Lynea! :3 I was marking the things I wanted to quote from your post until I realized how huge it was, lol. So I'll just comment with what's on my mind.
Blood Gorged does benefit Icy Touch and DnD as well :) It provides 10% ArP passively at all times AND +10% damage while above 75% HP. A lot of people miss the second part and only think about the ArP it gives. :D
Getting Glorenzelg allows you to get better non-T10 legs so you're right on this. That sword together with Veteran of the Third War are enough to get your Exp capped.
Regarding talents:
- Spell Deflection only affects direct spells and it doesn't affect boss spells (LDW's Frostbolt). Yes, it should. Yes, it's a bug. The same way those same spells cannot be reflected by a Warrior... :(
- You don't need more than 1/3 Scent of Blood because further points into the talent only increase the amount of white attacks that will give 10 RP. Rune Strikes won't give RP, regardless of being on-next-attack. Also, Scent of Blood procs from a ****ton of things that shouldn't proc it, so even with 1/3 you'll have it up all the time.
- Lichborne - I don't see how it will help you, apart from... self-heals with Death Coils combined with AMS during BQL's air phase? There are dungeons in which this talent is super cool, but in raids... not really.Edited: January 4, 2016
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Member
There are several reasons not to take HS. Especially with http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=49565 you won't be casting it this often in AOE situations as DnD outscales it in any way. By the time you would be able to use the generated Death Runes to HS the sh*t out of the mobs you have to refresh diseases and drop the next DnD. Taking HS also prevents you from taking http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=49657 in a spec like this (ofc. you could drop hit or dodge, but this is no good trade for an mainly offensive oriented talent in a tank spec).
You trade tank related talents/interests for an offensive spell. Not worth it, imho.
Same stuff almost applies for not using http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=45805. Manually refreshing diseases consumes two runes that could be used for Death Strike, directly limiting your self-healing. Beside the fact that the only relevant alternative from a tanking perspective would be http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43533. http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43550, http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43542 and http://wotlk.openwow.com/item=43827 aren't an option since they only provide threat and damage. Thanks to IT and DnD you don't lack threat, ever, and damage wise the DK hits the lowest of all tank classes in wotlk.
You can build your spec around a meaningless AoE-Threat-Scenario without Hunters, but in this case you should just /gquit or Alt+F4 out of the pug you were running into.
Edit: http://wotlk.openwow.com/spell=61158 is bugged and doesn't work on warmane. Same as Battle Stance. You don't get 10% ArP, only a 10% armor reduction. This has no benefit on a tank.Edited: January 4, 2016 Reason: Blood Gorged
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Member
Many <3's go out to Lynea :3 Holy Mother of Balls that post was so awesome xD
Hah! Same here! I was literally sitting here typing a response as you posted that! I will be doing the same too xD
Lichborne: I really don't know why people take it either, I guess cuz just 1 point so may as well? :S cuz I've contemplated taking it multiple times.
I've gone ahead and taken the Runes Strike glyph for now, as I tend to find that helps my threat output better, also because it reminds me of playing my Druid tank, it's nice to have a Maul type of button :3
I FORGOT ABOUT AMS GLYPH - I like carrying around all the glyphs in my bag and abusing the fact that 3.3.5 doesn't require lexicons to change them :3 Herbalist + Incription alts ftw.
I've decide that Popping CDs as a DK feels very strange, having to have the runes/Runic Power available to pop defensives is very alien to me and I don't like it >.> I may very well take 3/3 Scent of blood purely such that I'm flooded with Runic Power and can pop more defensive without having to fluff about for 2-3 seconds generating the runic power for it - As i said i might have to experiment on this, but having too much is better than not having enough right >.>
I've decided to drop some talents out of Blood Gorged. I'm Listening and treasuring your advice, I swear! But I think there's something to be said about pursuing damage reduction even at great cost - Though this might be more of a very very end game heroic thing, where dropping huge threat talents in favor of taking 0..01% less damage may be preferred, however i don't think i'm quite at the skill level yet.
I don't want to drop Heart Strike just yet as i like the damage and double target threat it gives, but I'm also aware of the Endless Winter build that drops Heart Strike - And also drops DRM. I consider that talent build a bit too advanced for me at this point in time and goes against my preferences for now- that's not to say it's a bad build, quite the opposite really.
I think I've gotten a pretty good grasp on Icy touching for threat thing now, there's something to be said about damage output as a tank, as I've always said threat holding as a tank is their biggest job, but additional threat above 2nd place on threat table is all an utter complete waste. As Paradoxical as that sounds, it just means its more difficult to Min-Max as a tank because we don't know how much threat we will need, but we want to aim to be just barely above 2nd place if possible, and being below second place is a catastrophe so shooting for slightly more threat than needed would probably be best
- Now i've got no idea how this affects our talent builds but i guess it means I'll keep Heart Strike in there as i doubt I'll need to do pure Icy Touch spams, and may as well do some DPS to warrant me taking up that raidslot.
I might revisit the whole Death Rune idea at a later stage, but for now i wish to stick with it, if this turns into a bad habit I'll try to break out of it at a later time, but for now it doesn't seem so bad, worst case scenario its just 3 lost talents that i'm not sure where else i would have spent anyway - Probably spell deflection lol.
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New Question about Death Striking!
How often to use it, and how often to reserve it?
I guess this idea has few different philosophies/approaches to it:
Assuming that we're at 100% HP in all scenarios:
1)Holding 2 Death strikes in reserve no matter what: leaving UUFF open waiting for a boss to slap us REALLY hard then 2x DeathStrike instantly.
This approach probably leads to extremely low overall threat/and wasting alot of overall strikes in the long term. Maybe viable for bosses with huge Damage Bursts? If threat isn't an issue...
2)Holding 1 Death strike in reserve no matter what: Using 1 death strike even while at 100% but hold the 2nd in reserve.
Basically my 4 used runes(BBUF) will tick away on CD these 2 runes(UF). I've had some scenarios when 10 seconds will pass by and I won't have found the opportunity to Death Strike, leading to a completely wasted rune cycle.
3)Delaying Death Strikes but without holding them in reserve:
Trying to use Heartstrikes/Horns/Defensives first but once there's nothing else to do settle with Deathstriking while at 100% HP without hesitating, because, well, more overall strikes.
4)Spamming the living daylights out of the button cuz who cares about heals. - 90% of Bdk's population unite! Lets be Baddies cuz we can. xD
I guess it's a balance of the idea that more often you keep your runes rolling on CD - The more overall Strikes you'll land per boss fight. More Strikes = more TPS, DPS, and... depending on luck/timings, maaaayyyybeee more self heals?
But what do I do if I'm on 100% HP and my last Unholy and Frost runes are active - but my 2 Blood runes are coming off cooldown in say like... 3 or 4 seconds? Is it best to sit the 4 seconds waiting for damage intake, or hit the button and let the runes go onto CD?
I guess it's very situational, but its definitely worth staying aware of this type of idea isn't it?Edited: January 5, 2016
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Forum Veteran
Save some DS when you know boss is going to do something that hurts. Also you can use more effective DS whn healers gotta move/debuff/heal raid or somwthing, to take pressure off. One mor thing, when you have more CDs laike triket/4parts t10 etc you can try bit more tasty DS when you dont have any active CD on.
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