[Question] Why hire? Let the community help you.

[Bloodunii]

Reading through [Retrospective 2015. Prospective 2016] thread. It seems obvious you are putting a lot of staff and resources into Lordareon. I have read in the Warsong Sub Forum that Cataclysm will receive it's updates when Lordareon has reach the expectations.

Why do you need to hire Developers, when there's developers willing to participate into the progress of their beloved realms for free.

You don't need to lend your core to the Developers (Free ones) of course. All the cores' run the same structure (TrinityCore) and isn't hard to replicate code from one core to another.

Bug Tracker.

You created a well thought Bug Tracker system. But it's missing one thing; An option to let the community help fix the exploit/bug.

TLDR; Instead being closed in and don't accept the advice and fixes from the community, allow the community to help fix the bugs/exploits, we are a community overall.

[Proterean]

We have no intention of getting collaborators right now. Also, our development team puts in a lot of work hours monthly to produce what we have right now. It's absolutely necessary for us to have such a strong development team.

It's an option, but not an option we will be considering at this time.

[Borrean]

This idea has been suggested and considered already but it won't go. Our staff is closed and firmly organized and by involving community to help around a lot of problems can occur. Developers indeed works hard as well as the QA team.

[Pyroching]

This idea has been suggested and considered already but it won't go. Our staff is closed and firmly organized and by involving community to help around a lot of problems can occur. Developers indeed works hard as well as the QA team.

To be honest, it really depends on the kind of help. Direct work from the community might ruin some things up.
I believe you're aware you got a lot of experienced players in your community that also worked with the data management. I am aware of several players that literally found several solutions for the scripting issues but, as you said, the dev team keeps refusing the help.

I really don't understand how you guys can state that it could be an issue if a person brings you the solution to the problem "X". I believe that a person that is offering help is actually trying to make your job easier. Yes there will be people asking for something in return but other will help with their own will and not expecting anything back. I'm not trying to question the developers job with this - Not even trying to bring them down - Just thinking that they could actually take the help from experienced people, change the scripting if needed to avoid possible exploits from that same script, and there we go. The development could go a way lot faster.

At least that was how things used to go in my last server. People would track errors, offer possible help and the Dev team would analyze if it would be accepted or not!

[lanrien]

Because it takes time to read the code, each person codes in his own style, then of course you have to adapt it to the system in place, read it again and again and see if there's shortcuts to be made to improve efficiency and THEN also check if there's nothing malicious written in there.

obviously the maliciou part is easy to spot, but the time and effort required to check everything from a 3rd party that has no idea how the devs work is just wasting time, sure 1/10 might actually work and be worth it, but what about the rest of the wasted time? Much better spent on doing it themselves.


people seem to have an idea that the devs don't do something because they don't know how, the chances of that being true is slim, the difficult part is making a fix that works with the rest of the server, not just a random "band-aid" that works for that specific problem but brakes 10 more in the process.

[Pyroching]

Because it takes time to read the code, each person codes in his own style, then of course you have to adapt it to the system in place, read it again and again and see if there's shortcuts to be made to improve efficiency and THEN also check if there's nothing malicious written in there.

obviously the maliciou part is easy to spot, but the time and effort required to check everything from a 3rd party that has no idea how the devs work is just wasting time, sure 1/10 might actually work and be worth it, but what about the rest of the wasted time? Much better spent on doing it themselves.


people seem to have an idea that the devs don't do something because they don't know how, the chances of that being true is slim, the difficult part is making a fix that works with the rest of the server, not just a random "band-aid" that works for that specific problem but brakes 10 more in the process.

I didn't say anything like that. As you pointed out - Each person codes in his own style. Correct. There are style global commands that can be a huge light up for several issues. Plus - Giving a script to someone means you'll probably have to descript the script as well so people can mess around with it. That's why I said that offering help could be good as long the person that would have to work on the script given by the community member would change the scripting to his own scripting (Server Personal Scripting).

The whole World of Warcraft code doesn't have those many variables. It won't go that far different. The output has to go in the same way even if I script in one way and you in other. Plus - If the person actually descripts the solution offered, as I mentioned above, the person that receives that information can actually take several ideas from that. I do agree with you in the aspect that several things might not work at all and are just a waste of time but good results show up after failed experiments. Each situation can have a really viable solution.

I'm not questioning the Dev's - Neither I am trying to bring them down. In fact, I'll be the first one stating that I'm aware of the ammount of work they have to face with the several different contents offered by Warmane. That's the main reason why I said that the help from the community could be useful. Not accepting it just means that the solutions might take more time to be reached when they can be one second away from you.

Then again, I'm a simple member of the community and I'm literally just throwing my two cents in this thread. I'm not trying to down someone or trying to pass the message that the Dev team is incompetent or something like that. Just to make it really clear before it eventually gets pointed out by someone.

[Baleroc]

I didn't say anything like that. As you pointed out - Each person codes in his own style. Correct. There are style global commands that can be a huge light up for several issues. Plus - Giving a script to someone means you'll probably have to descript the script as well so people can mess around with it. That's why I said that offering help could be good as long the person that would have to work on the script given by the community member would change the scripting to his own scripting (Server Personal Scripting).

The whole World of Warcraft code doesn't have those many variables. It won't go that far different. The output has to go in the same way even if I script in one way and you in other. Plus - If the person actually descripts the solution offered, as I mentioned above, the person that receives that information can actually take several ideas from that. I do agree with you in the aspect that several things might not work at all and are just a waste of time but good results show up after failed experiments. Each situation can have a really viable solution.

I'm not questioning the Dev's - Neither I am trying to bring them down. In fact, I'll be the first one stating that I'm aware of the ammount of work they have to face with the several different contents offered by Warmane. That's the main reason why I said that the help from the community could be useful. Not accepting it just means that the solutions might take more time to be reached when they can be one second away from you.

Then again, I'm a simple member of the community and I'm literally just throwing my two cents in this thread. I'm not trying to down someone or trying to pass the message that the Dev team is incompetent or something like that. Just to make it really clear before it eventually gets pointed out by someone.

I understand your reasoning, but consider the following issue:

In programming, we measure the time complexity of algorithms. If each person in the community suggests an algorithm that is vastly slow and insignificant - and just works as you said - this will break, and slow down content. It is easy to come up with a solution. But. It is hard to attain an efficient solution that works 15 times faster than a suggested one. Having the community bring new code will cause efficiency issues, and potentially, break code.

Next, Trinity Core works this way, under a strict and managed way. War mane, I assume will not have the same time to strictly manage the efficiency and robustness of code. In turn, this will actually slow down the development, checking each piece of code.

Furthermore, as mentioned above: coding style. The code must be consistent throughout, and only those with knowledge of the servers architecture will devise a structure similar to what is implemented. Without a consistent style, it can be difficult to interpret what the code is doing. This is of importance if the code is broken, or it needs improving for efficiency.

To summarise, having a community input may seem a great idea to improve the amount of working content. But consider this: what is worse? Content that does not work, or content that is slow, breaks other content, and potentially requires more time to check and validate, which may be difficult under the various coding styles within the community.

[Sixtyninee]

Or just allow pseudo-code submissions on the bug tracker. Still though, I know plenty of people who may think they can code but in reality I wouldn't touch their code with a 10ft pole. Remember that quality is a relative term and I'm sure the devs would agree that, overall, writing their own code would be easier than reading someone else's and deciding if it's worth refactoring.

[Pyroching]

Or just allow pseudo-code submissions on the bug tracker. Still though, I know plenty of people who may think they can code but in reality I wouldn't touch their code with a 10ft pole. Remember that quality is a relative term and I'm sure the devs would agree that, overall, writing their own code would be easier than reading someone else's and deciding if it's worth refactoring.

Yes, this might work as well.

I guess that a place to drop the coding itself with the point of getting conclusions/ideas would not be a bad idea either. It just depends on the scripting that is actually being used at the moment and in the so called quality of the person that actually uploads the script. I'm not trying to say that all the scripting will be good. But I'm just saying that several expert people dropping some ideas wouldn't be bad. Don't forget that some people don't apply for a spot as a Dev 'cause some of them don't really want the responsability that the job brings you. I'm pretty sure that some of them would be glad to help sometimes but not with a full commitment.

Baleroc; I do understand all of what you're saying as well. Cheers for your comment! I had some doubts in some points you touched and it cleared out for me. :)

[Zerrubabel]

Or just allow pseudo-code submissions on the bug tracker. Still though, I know plenty of people who may think they can code but in reality I wouldn't touch their code with a 10ft pole. Remember that quality is a relative term and I'm sure the devs would agree that, overall, writing their own code would be easier than reading someone else's and deciding if it's worth refactoring.

Don't you mean, "39 and a half foot pole"? XD

[Borrean]

I do not think there is a point discussing this further, we are already aware of this idea and if it ever gets implemented you shall know. (Probably the best place to open this topic was suggestions part of the forum)