Where are my Sub PvE guides at!?

[Carnivusx2]

I know there's some of you Sub PvE'ers out there. Show yourselves and be known!

[erbwba21]

Sub PvE is laughable, however still amusing as it does provide the Hemo buff to increase the dps of the raid (ever so slightly) based on your current raid comp, which you will want to be Physical heavy.

25 = Required (2/3 Tanks + 4-5-6 healers) -7(average) + DPS (6 Melee Physical + 2 Ranged Physical aka Hunter + 9 Ranged Magical + 1 Melee Magical aka DeathKnight ) is average comp.
With a Sub rogue you would want to have 10+ Physical DPS (not including Tanks)

Sub however, does provide some of the highest, if not highest amount of burst in the entire game. Thus making 5 man Heroics or anything with a 30 second fight incredibly viable.

The problem with Sub, is 3/4 of the spells are not very useful for damage, thus making the spec to be put simple laughable. The early points you can simple use them as you wish as it is more about your preferences, but I really dont see where the points can go besides where I put them.

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#fhxboLLZZtbrbhGzdAzVcRt

Glyphs -
Improved Vigor
Improved Dance
Improved Hemorrhage // Improved Eviscerate

Variations -

http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#foZ0...tbrbhGzdAzVcRt
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#fhxbRbLZZtbrbhGzdAzVcRt
http://wotlk.openwow.com/talent#fhxbRZ0tZtbrbhGzdAzVcRt

***Note that with Improved Expose armor, you actually gain +10 Energy @ 5 points, so when you Dance you can Ambush-Expose-Ambush-Ambush-Expose-Ambush-Ambush-Expose-Ambush-Ambush in the 8 Second window that dance is up, increasing your energy by 30 resulting in 1 more ambush theoretically.***


So it is actually quite challenging to get the rotation done correctly. When you start an encounter you it will be one of the most important and stressful parts of the fight. You need only have a certain amount of time to get all the things smashed out before some of your debuffs wear off.

You will want to prioritize Crit in this build over everything elts. At the end of the boss fight, the dps meter will read Auto-Attacks - Ambush. You really need your ambush to crit and if it does not then :(

Always begin with T-o-T making sure to be at full energy before you actually get to dishing out your crazy dps, because if done correctly, you will pull the boss off of the tank.

Open with Premeditate + SnD IN STEALTH!, this is important because you will lose out on combo points, missed combo points are missed opportunities = loss dps (which is very limited without cds) which translates into loss of energy overall. We do not want to lose our energy. Then again make sure that you are at max energy before you shadow step to the boss.
You next step will be to perform the important shadow step - ambush combo, which you will then apply the Expose Armor debuff onto the boss (expose armor is very highly underrated tool when attacking mobs for long period of time, they stack well with other classes expose armor on the target).

Now the time is ticking due to your Master of Subtlety de-buff wearing away, which gives you 6 seconds but basically 5 seconds to begin your Dance combo, which you DO NOT want to start your Dance buff util you are at max energy. *Note, do not apply a Hemo buff as you are about to use your burst thus requiring every single digit of energy you can afford to crush that mob*

Once you are at max energy, begin your dance (you probably will only have 1-3 seconds left on your MoS buff) making sure you use your 5 combo points after every ambush. You ideally want to Ambush-Rupture-SnD/Expose Armor-Ambush-SnD/EA-Ambush...... Due to your ability to regain that 25 energy back as soon as you spend it. I can not recall off of the top of my head, but I do think that you can get 5-6 Ambushes in the 8 seconds of shadow dance for max gains which is what your looking for.

***Note- This will be one of the only times that you will actually want to apply your Rupture buff on the target as it will be the only time it will actually increase your dps, unless stated below.***

For the next 50 seconds, will be your down time, which requires you to be creative and stick to the plan you have thought our and done many times. Your new priority for that period of time will be to keep your Hemo debuff on the target, ensuring that the raid boss will be taking max damage possible. You probably will realize that you do not have to smash the hemo button, but it will need to be applied every 2 seconds minimum to ensure max dps.

It is important to note that you will be generating combo points, VIA the raid, so pooling your energy will be very beneficial, especially with the final 5-6 seconds left of your dance CD.

The 50 second down time, can be broken into TWO 30 second segments. The first of the segments being in which you will need to apply your SnD + Expose armor @ 5 combo points. After that you should be able to apply 2 Eviscerates until the next 30 seconds comes back up where you will need to begin reapplying those 2 same buffs as before.

*Note that make sure you pay attention and are aware of the current boss fight. Say if you will not be on the target applying white hits you need to apply a rupture instead of the eviscerates.*

The second half of the 30 seconds will be setting up your next Shadow Dance DPS Segment ensuring that your SnD / Expose armor will be at max efficiency while applying ambushes.

The timers ticking down, 5, Hit that Tricks of Trade Macro, 4, Oh **** did i get my rotation right?, 3, Am I going to reach 120 energy before, 2, oh ****, 1, Dance.

Before you enter the shadow dance during the fight, it is important that when you reach 1 you vanish - Shadow Step combo. Why? Read the damn tool tips, you should know why by now.


I play a Dwarf Rogue on Lordaeron, feel free to send me a message.

[taralej]

From the lack of expansion heading, I was left with the impression that he meant Cata or MoP. Right now I'm facepalming.

[erbwba21]

From the lack of expansion heading, I was left with the impression that he meant Cata or MoP. Right now I'm facepalming.

I do not recognize anything past 3.3.5 as a valid World Of Warcraft.exe (except 5.0 Mists Monk, that **** was fun)

[Carnivusx2]

, however still amusing as it does provide the Hemo buff to increase the dps of the raid (ever so slightly) .

This is the point at which I stopped reading your guide.

NEXT

So it is actually quite challenging to get the rotation done correctly.

You do have a point here. That's why I'm drawing a lot of attention to the subject.

I am on board with your SS + Vanish + Ambush.

Though I am not on board with your expose armor.

This guide is in the right direction. I'm not here to pick at anyone attempting to explain this rotation. Its difficult. But what I am doing honestly is developing a theory crafting community for Sub Rogues. We are far in between but my credentials for this spec are what drives me to develop this unique spec.

Please add more feedback and maybe we can make a meta?

[erbwba21]

This is the point at which I stopped reading your guide.

Are you a troll? I do not understand how you can say that you understand how PvE Subtelty works, and say something like that. That is what the spell does, it increases physical damage. Yet you go and say that its wrong.

You completely validate my point that I have always made about expose armor, it is not valued and 9/10 rogues do not use it in their spell rotation. Its a 25 man raid, not a 1 man boss bash. 20% expose will increase dps to everyone elts that does physical damage, explain to my why you would not want to buff the raid.

[Carnivusx2]

Are you a troll? I do not understand how you can say that you understand how PvE Subtelty works, and say something like that. That is what the spell does, it increases physical damage. Yet you go and say that its wrong.

You completely validate my point that I have always made about expose armor, it is not valued and 9/10 rogues do not use it in their spell rotation. Its a 25 man raid, not a 1 man boss bash. 20% expose will increase dps to everyone elts that does physical damage, explain to my why you would not want to buff the raid.

Look, I'm not argueing that Expose Armor is a buff that benefits the raid, but to be frank, I would expect my raid lead/CL delegate the debuff to a rogue with an inferior and less complex rotation. I'd rather work hard for my money. So when you say, "how can I say Expose Armor is not a part of my rotation", I am saying I do not do max dmg output with the spell. Seriously, next.

[erbwba21]

you do not max dmg output with that spell. I do not get your point of view. max dmg would be over with the raid in my opinion. I dont see how people can be so bent on their single target dps when there are way more people involved in a fight. Max damage should be raid wide, not individual.

[Carnivusx2]

I'm not disagreeing that Expose Armor gains as a raid are higher. I'm simply telling you to let a rogue with a 2-3CD rotation to manage that debuff over a rogue who is managing 6+ CD's. So when I speak in terms of damage output as a spec and you shadowcraft your opinions of the ideal rotation for the spec, no, I do not include Expose Armor in my rotation as that can/should be re delegated, respectfully.

[Carnivusx2]

Your new priority for that period of time will be to keep your Hemo debuff on the target, ensuring that the raid boss will be taking max damage possible. You probably will realize that you do not have to smash the hemo button, but it will need to be applied every 2 seconds minimum to ensure max dps.

I completely disagree with you here as well. Unless you have max uptime of Hemo its useless. As sub you already know you will not be using it nearly as much. Plus did we mention the talent points we put into Back Stab to make it the Go To CP Generator? I wasn't able to load your build so I didn't see how much you put into those talents. But if you are not BS'ing than you aren't doing it right......still

Opportunity
Slaughter from the Shadows
Puncturing Wounds
Sinister Calling

You BS Crit % > Hemo Crit % [debuff stays the same] = = BS Dmg Out > Hemo Dmg Out