Technical So loot bans are against TOS

[Obnoxious]

Maybe you can honestly answer this, which one would you join?

Neither, of course. If their judgement could be trusted they wouldn't use vague bull**** like "you get loot if I say so" in the first place.

[angrylol]

If that was true, they would not join his raid. But the reality shows something else.

Orr maybe you think players are too stupid to understand what he wrote? Rules says that it should not be shield against ninjas, but then staff removes players who make such raids with certain level of "protection". And not giving loot to players who lie and link fake achievements, then wipe away everyones time is perfectly reasonable.

I mean, if players have no agency, if everyone agrees that they will not get any loot, then raid leader get banned anyway... it's time to redefine ninja rules, like iron clad, every single scenario, every single thing, what we got here does not cut it. Oh and ban all the "reserved", because it's practically the same thing.

[Obnoxious]

Oh and ban all the "reserved", because it's practically the same thing.

No, it isn't. That has a very definite line for what will happen, with no subjectivity or gaping wide room for the Scamming Leader to favor whoever for whatever reason. There's also no need to redefine rules, the ultimate rule in the end of the day is GM Discretion, which exists precisely to take care of cases when people try to loophole and believe they can get away with a scam by going "the rules didn't say I can't!!11!"

[angrylol]

No, you give leeway to "make their own rules", like splitting loot at the end and reserving items, changing MS, etc. Then GMs at their discretion ban players who overstep non-defined lines. Why is reserving 3 items ok, but reserving all items not ok? What is the "basic premise"?

You can go "our rules" all day, it's true. But don't pretend that players don't need to graduate a lawschool to understand how to not get banned. All this stuff is based on pre-existing, lets call it, "general knowledge of fair loot". Can a player, who has no idea what stats or items each class should have, look at the rules and split loot fairly? No, they can not.

[Obnoxious]

But don't pretend that players don't need to graduate a lawschool to understand how to not get banned.

Most accounts never get banned even once, so reality disagrees with you. Not that I expect that to stop you.

No, they can not.

Then maybe they shouldn't lead a raid.

[angrylol]

And probably 90% of banned accounts simply had no clue how to distribute loot. But it's ok, as long as majority of all accounts are not banned. wat

I think you did not understand me. Players can impose their rules, we agree on that. Players can reserve items, it's not punishable. ML can give items to himself without rolling with a promise that it will be rolled at the end/2h mark. Changing players MS is fine.
Things are ok when everyone agrees and knows what the get into. If 10 players will roll tank MS, it's properly stated before the start, then if I report can assume nothing will happen. But actually that's not true, because GM can exercise his discretion.

So the idea is, no matter what the rules say, if GM thinks it's a scam, it's over.
I agree to join a raid where I can get loot banned, then I get loot banned because I keep wiping the raid, I can make a report and raid leader will get banned.

Where is the line, what is fair and good loot rules and what is loophole scamscamscam. For how many players can change MS, before it's a scam? How many items I can reserve? What is under players discretion and what is under GMs?

[Flereous]

And probably 90% of banned accounts simply had no clue how to distribute loot. But it's ok, as long as majority of all accounts are not banned. wat

I think you did not understand me. Players can impose their rules, we agree on that. Players can reserve items, it's not punishable. ML can give items to himself without rolling with a promise that it will be rolled at the end/2h mark. Changing players MS is fine.
Things are ok when everyone agrees and knows what the get into. If 10 players will roll tank MS, it's properly stated before the start, then if I report can assume nothing will happen. But actually that's not true, because GM can exercise his discretion.

So the idea is, no matter what the rules say, if GM thinks it's a scam, it's over.
I agree to join a raid where I can get loot banned, then I get loot banned because I keep wiping the raid, I can make a report and raid leader will get banned.

Where is the line, what is fair and good loot rules and what is loophole scamscamscam. For how many players can change MS, before it's a scam? How many items I can reserve? What is under players discretion and what is under GMs?

Go make guide/FAQ how to properly lead raid - be useful (like really useful for once here). What's the point of your posts here in first place?

[angrylol]

Point is to show that GMs should not infringe in cases where everyone agrees to something, as long as everything was stated and disclosed up front. No matter how subjectively it's a scam or whatever.

And sorry, making such a guide is impossible, it can not exist.

[Flereous]

Point is to show that GMs should not infringe in cases where everyone agrees to something, as long as everything was stated and disclosed up front. No matter how subjectively it's a scam or whatever.

And sorry, making such a guide is impossible, it can not exist.

GMs can do whatever they want as long as they feel its the right thing to do. That's why they are game masters, staff and you..you are nobody to judge their decisions. Warmane is strong today because they never paid single **** to what "everyone agrees to", but doing what they feel is best. There is no difference here

[angrylol]

They can it's a fact. But every action can be a cause that leads to an effect. Every player can judge their actions, just as they judge players actions.

Here we can see that GM sided with a lying player who "had sex and changed his mind the next day, it's rape now". It's bad, no matter how you look at it. That's judging from what's said here, not the actual situation. It's perfectly believable that this is just a bunch of bs and he got banned for something else.

[Arbiterone]

What it looks like to me based on the conversation between you and Palutena, what have caused your suspension is not rolling items from previous bosses before kicking someone. If you kill a number of bosses and then decides to remove a player, you have to roll those items and not exclude the player who took part in the fights.

[Flereous]

Ngl, I'm against the whole "lootban" story.
At the end you were the one who picked/invited them on your raid which makes you responsible for their performance as well - you have zero rights to take item (lootban) from them even if they're not acting blazing fast on the mechanics or even failing at them, because they're already part of the ****show, investing their time and id..Unlike gruns where you can -dkp them, you can't and shouldn't do anything in such scenarios with pugs. Spend more time and organize better group instead wasting both sides' time with poor leadership in order to grind few BoEs or whatever you are there for as "leader", because yeah..most of you are not even leading or care to explain anything before the pulls. Just acting as loot masters

[Obnoxious]

And probably 90% of banned accounts simply had no clue how to distribute loot.

Then they shouldn't be leading a raid if they don't know how to do one of their most important tasks.

GM can exercise his discretion.
So the idea is, no matter what the rules say, if GM thinks it's a scam, it's over.

It's a Saturday miracle, you actually got a simple concept, which is applied all over social media, gaming and many other activities.

[angrylol]

You keep dodging, why did he get banned, despite everyone agreeing to completely trust him to distribute loot at his discretion? Everyone agreed to give him loot ban powers, should he be able to loot ban only on bosses that guy made mistakes? Or it's is irrelevant, such a thing is completely against the rules? Or is giving absolute powers over loot is against the rules, if so then where is the limit? It's not numerical amount, since I can reserve all BOE. Then is the limit a "type"? Can I reserve "all BOP", it's fundamentaly is the same concept?

[xTheLichKingx]

You have a good answer in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP7a...aABAg#comments (highlighted comment)

The raid rules indicate loot bans can and will happen and are clear as day. How is that a good answer?

Oh wow, then what should work is "all loot is reserved". Since reserving items is completely fine.

If it's as you say, this is completely unjust, infringing on players decisions, because someone withdrew their consent in the next day.

I don't make the rules. I doubt even claiming all loot is reserved would have avoided this ban. That's also probably against the TOS aswell.

I'm surprised anyone would join a raid that has SCAMSCAMSCAMSCAMSCAM written all over it in the first place, but still, that "Loot distribution and Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion" bull**** aren't clear loot rules at all, it's the most lemme-scam-ya vague thing anyone could come up with. If you want to enforce that sort of thing there should be very definite and clear guidelines for WHAT this "discretion" is based on, so players are fully informed of what is expected of them, can make an informed decision whether they are capable of fulfilling that, and have no chance of being denied loot because you wanted to favor someone else or just "felt like it."

How are the raid rules not clear as day? "Trolling will be punished severely" and "Loot distribution and loot bans are based on the master looters discretion" communicate very clearly that what the raid leader says, goes. There's no way to make it more clear.

Whats wrong with such rules, everyone is informed and it's clear that any loot can be denied with no reason and trusts leader to split it fairly. Why should players who work hard give loot to scammers, who got in raid by lying that they know what to do?

You are defending parasites who want to leech off of this guys guild and they can not do anything about it. I think it's is very respectable to be known as a great guild, if you go with them and do your part you will have all chances to get loot. But if you are parasitic scum liar you will not get anything, so don't bother trying to scam.

I think it's exemplary way of doing things.

This is indeed the truth, I have led raids for 5 years straight on warmane with these rules and haven't had an infraction or problem once. Everyone that joins my raids knows that trolling (which includes consistently failing the same tactics) will result in a loot ban. They happily join my raids as loot distribution is based on my discretion which means bis priority is given, class priority is given (ret paladins dont get STS/DBW for example) and what not.

Do you even read what you type?

Angrylol is communicating very clearly, and albeit it's true based on my raid rules that I can just straight up ninja loot anything I want based off my raid rules like a scumbag, it doesn't happen that way. I do the raids, lead the raids, run my guild and succeed in the same regards as other top end guilds, by doing whats necessary for raid success. That includes kicking players when necessary, distributing loot bans when necessary and making the raid succeed at all costs. I would rather 12 bosses drop items than 2, and if a few people need to be punished to make sure that happens, then so be it.

Unfortunately this is no longer a possibility as the rules and this ban indicate that loot banning others is against the TOS. Anyone arguing "but loot bans weren't made clear at raid start" is either lying, trolling or talking non-sense, as "Trolling will be punished severely" and "Loot bans are based on Master Looter's discretion". These raid rules are the same raid rules my guild, all my officers and all my friends have been using to run their own raids how they see fit for years now. They're tyranical but they allow the raid leader to get the job done, which is the most important part of it all. After all, what are loot rules when there is no loot?

So you think there are no players who would agree to that?
Maybe you can honestly answer this, which one would you join?:

1. Join random unknown leader and you have an option to report him after you GET NOTHING.
2. Join reputable player in reputable guild and trust his judgement to split the loot fairly and protect you from ticks. You will practically get guaranteed chance on loot, if you do your part in raid properly.

I can guarantee you that every single player who knows what to do in game ill join option 2.

Yes this is the truth. I join pugs day and night, get ninja looted and the reports fall on deaf ears, with ninja looting being common-place on warmane hence the hundreds of bans done weekly.

I wouldn't be able to run 25-50 raids a week every single week for 5 years if I was a well known ninja looter. I also would have gotten banned for ninja looting far sooner if I had actually ninja looted. FFS I even have like 20 items purchased from the coin shop.

Neither, of course. If their judgement could be trusted they wouldn't use vague bull**** like "you get loot if I say so" in the first place.

It's really not vague at all. It communicates very clearly that I am raid leader I am the dictator of the raid and my word is law in this raid. "Raid lead has 100% power over the raid" could not communicate this any clearer.

If that was true, they would not join his raid. But the reality shows something else.

Orr maybe you think players are too stupid to understand what he wrote? Rules says that it should not be shield against ninjas, but then staff removes players who make such raids with certain level of "protection". And not giving loot to players who lie and link fake achievements, then wipe away everyones time is perfectly reasonable.

I mean, if players have no agency, if everyone agrees that they will not get any loot, then raid leader get banned anyway... it's time to redefine ninja rules, like iron clad, every single scenario, every single thing, what we got here does not cut it. Oh and ban all the "reserved", because it's practically the same thing.

I 100% agree that ninja rules need to be re-defined as the raid rules that I communicated are clear as day that loot bans are to be implemented and I was banned specifically for the use of said loot bans.

No, it isn't. That has a very definite line for what will happen, with no subjectivity or gaping wide room for the Scamming Leader to favor whoever for whatever reason. There's also no need to redefine rules, the ultimate rule in the end of the day is GM Discretion, which exists precisely to take care of cases when people try to loophole and believe they can get away with a scam by going "the rules didn't say I can't!!11!"

So I suppose I've just been scamming players for 5 years now, along with everyone in my guild, and the guilds of "Argent Dawn", "Illusion", "Fade", "Eat my crits", "Fanatic" and every other top end guild that uses loot bans, class and bis priority along with punishments to dictate how loot goes in raids.

My rules are clear as day that loot bans are to be used. I loot banned a player for failure to perform in the raid. I got banned.

No, you give leeway to "make their own rules", like splitting loot at the end and reserving items, changing MS, etc. Then GMs at their discretion ban players who overstep non-defined lines. Why is reserving 3 items ok, but reserving all items not ok? What is the "basic premise"?

You can go "our rules" all day, it's true. But don't pretend that players don't need to graduate a lawschool to understand how to not get banned. All this stuff is based on pre-existing, lets call it, "general knowledge of fair loot". Can a player, who has no idea what stats or items each class should have, look at the rules and split loot fairly? No, they can not.

That's the truth though, I followed the rules to a T and still got banned because GM's discretion dictated that the implementation of a loot ban is a scam and I'm a thief and thus require a ban.

Most accounts never get banned even once, so reality disagrees with you. Not that I expect that to stop you.

Most accounts aren't me. I'm a very well known YouTuber on the server with many people in my community discord, both whom which love and hate me.
https://discord.gg/qEH4vjwmpq "Apathy Forever" has 1250+ people all active in a community discord following my leadership as head of command of the guilds. I run 3 guilds on icecrown, 1 on onyxia and 1 on Lordaeron. I've not dealt with a ban like this, ever and I've been doing this a very long time. So no, reality agrees with him having experienced first hand that my leadership has brought me such success

Then maybe they shouldn't lead a raid.

At this point that's what I've concluded. Even though I've led successful raids for 5+ years and done my job as a guild master, I no longer am willing to risk my account by simply raid leading.

And probably 90% of banned accounts simply had no clue how to distribute loot. But it's ok, as long as majority of all accounts are not banned. wat

I think you did not understand me. Players can impose their rules, we agree on that. Players can reserve items, it's not punishable. ML can give items to himself without rolling with a promise that it will be rolled at the end/2h mark. Changing players MS is fine.
Things are ok when everyone agrees and knows what the get into. If 10 players will roll tank MS, it's properly stated before the start, then if I report can assume nothing will happen. But actually that's not true, because GM can exercise his discretion.

So the idea is, no matter what the rules say, if GM thinks it's a scam, it's over.
I agree to join a raid where I can get loot banned, then I get loot banned because I keep wiping the raid, I can make a report and raid leader will get banned.

Where is the line, what is fair and good loot rules and what is loophole scamscamscam. For how many players can change MS, before it's a scam? How many items I can reserve? What is under players discretion and what is under GMs?

Yes this is what happened. Player loot banned. Raid leader and guild master loot banned. Nothing more too it as Arbiter one states in his post.

Point is to show that GMs should not infringe in cases where everyone agrees to something, as long as everything was stated and disclosed up front. No matter how subjectively it's a scam or whatever.

And sorry, making such a guide is impossible, it can not exist.

I'm glad someone else realizes the predicament I'm in.

GMs can do whatever they want as long as they feel its the right thing to do. That's why they are game masters, staff and you..you are nobody to judge their decisions. Warmane is strong today because they never paid single **** to what "everyone agrees to", but doing what they feel is best. There is no difference here

Yeah but what angrylol is saying is every player in my raid agreed to follow the raid rules and was happy to do so. YEAH YEAH PUNISH THOSE TROLL!!!! I WANT A SMOOTH RAID!!! Buuuuuut, when said player is on the wrong end of the loot ban, they no longer support the loot ban system. It's like the old-school story "The lottery" where a small town picks a lottery winner to be stoned to death and everyone is happy with the system until they're on the receiving end.

I agree loot bans suck, and I've gotten my fair share of them and was pissed about it, but when I make mistakes I own up to them, not report the guy who loot banned me lol.

They can it's a fact. But every action can be a cause that leads to an effect. Every player can judge their actions, just as they judge players actions.

Here we can see that GM sided with a lying player who "had sex and changed his mind the next day, it's rape now". It's bad, no matter how you look at it. That's judging from what's said here, not the actual situation. It's perfectly believable that this is just a bunch of bs and he got banned for something else.

Nope the next post says it accurately.

What it looks like to me based on the conversation between you and Palutena, what have caused your suspension is not rolling items from previous bosses before kicking someone. If you kill a number of bosses and then decides to remove a player, you have to roll those items and not exclude the player who took part in the fights.

Yes, exactly. I did something called "A LOOT BAN" which is common place in world of warcraft, in all expansions. Loot Ban: Not allowing a player to roll for items from a specific boss for tactics failure on that boss, or from the entire raid for tactics failurei n the entire raid.

So as Arbiterone just stated: You HAVE to roll the items off to all the players in the raid no matter what, trolling or not, failing tactics or not or whatever pops up.

Ngl, I'm against the whole "lootban" story.
At the end you were the one who picked/invited them on your raid which makes you responsible for their performance as well - you have zero rights to take item (lootban) from them even if they're not acting blazing fast on the mechanics or even failing at them, because they're already part of the ****show, investing their time and id..Unlike gruns where you can -dkp them, you can't and shouldn't do anything in such scenarios with pugs. Spend more time and organize better group instead wasting both sides' time with poor leadership in order to grind few BoEs or whatever you are there for as "leader", because yeah..most of you are not even leading or care to explain anything before the pulls. Just acting as loot masters

You misunderstand, I invited a few pugs to a guild run and got banned for loot banning the pugs that failed tactics and wiped the raid, regardless of the fact that it's a guild raid environment.

I ONLY lead guild raids. I hate pugging. This is what I get for inviting pugs to my raids. I learned my lesson.