Look how they massacred my boy

[penrypooch]

Why? You say a bunch of times how it's "the worst" and "absolute disaster," but not once explain why.
It gives a brief chance for try-hards to have a go at the pre-nerf values, then moves on to post-nerf so everyone else gets the chance to complete the content. What's the "absolute disaster" about that?

I hopefully did explain my reasoning in my previous post earlier in the thread, but I'll briefly do so again in case there were parts I missed addressing or in case people haven't read it:

I think that the content releasing buffed and getting nerfed after a few weeks has the potential to alienate mid-tier-and-below guilds who will have their natural progression severely disrupted (or effectively reset depending on how you look at progression as a concept). If a guild is 4/9 hardmodes in Ulduar and progressing their 5th, nerfing the entire raid by a drastic amount as was done in Sunwell would see that guild suddenly breezing through the majority of the hardmodes, effectively compromising their entire progression.

Given that Onyxia's focus is delivering the feeling of progressing through the expansions, it seems to me that deliberately interfering with the majority of players' progression would be in opposition to the focus of the server - or a disaster, as I put it.

If the goal is that more of the population gets a chance to complete the content, then ultimately I think "a brief chance for try-hards have a go at pre-nerf values" is not worth compromising the progression of everyone who is mid-prog when the nerfs are implemented.

I found the three Frostmourne seasons very enjoyable and a suitable challenge, but I would believe that data exists showing the wider population would not agree. I just think it would be better to keep the difficulty the same throughout, whatever level it might be.

Hopefully I've managed to articulate my points a bit better now. :)

[jmsvanbuskirk]

Players who are more casual/semi-hc have to look forward to sitting in a waiting room on content release. They may as well just pick up pom poms and be cheerleader for the 1% while they themselves get stuck on X boss until buffed content is lifted.

Classic actually did gradual nerfs in their releases, but they released at original values then nerfed it even further. I think partly because most players didn't even experience end game in retail because it was incredibly challenging at the time, but also because the target audience returns for nostalgia and they're busy adults in their 30s and 40s.

Seriously if those players want hard mode then remove five players from your raid group. Reduce your healers. Solo tank it whatever. The rest of us came here to play the game from 17 years ago. That's the game we want. Buffed anything is just pointless custom content garbage. The TBC post-nerf pre-nerf we're all done with that. In WotLK we play the game as it was end of story. LK 25 heroic has 103 million health. That's it. He does X abilities and X damage. You guys had your Frostmournes and your Lordaeron. Leave this alone.

[Allylilith]

for content to feel the same as back then, there simply need to be huge buffs to the bosses. the 17yr old values were designed for people who never saw those fights, never played the game, had no idea how their classes work and played on pcs from 2005. using those numbers after well over a decade of theory crafting readily available to everyone, turns every raid into a complete joke with no challenge whatsoever. You simply cannot have an actually blizzlike experience unless you heavily buff the content

[Allylilith]

Players who are more casual/semi-hc have to look forward to sitting in a waiting room on content release. They may as well just pick up pom poms and be cheerleader for the 1% while they themselves get stuck on X boss until buffed content is lifted.

can you only enjoy the game if you kill the last boss the first time you enter a raid? any casual or semi-hc guild can and should enjoy progressing, thats the point of the game

[jmsvanbuskirk]

You're making the mistake of equating enjoyment of a video game to challenging content. I can play the original Super Mario today and enjoy myself even though I don't find it so challenging anymore. It's nostalgic. I'm still going to mess up and die. You see what I mean? That's the driving motive behind the content being made nowadays. They remake movies now based on that one factor and Blizzard I can guarantee launched Classic based on that. Nostalgia sells.

That feeling is why I keep playing this game over and over. I've killed the Lich king over 1,000 times literally and it never gets old. So yes absolutely progressing all of WotLK like I played it on retail would be the greatest thing ever.

[Allylilith]

You're making the mistake of equating enjoyment of a video game to challenging content. I can play the original Super Mario today and enjoy myself even though I don't find it so challenging anymore. It's nostalgic. I'm still going to mess up and die. You see what I mean? That's the driving motive behind the content being made nowadays. They remake movies now based on that one factor and Blizzard I can guarantee launched Classic based on that. Nostalgia sells.

That feeling is why I keep playing this game over and over. I've killed the Lich king over 1,000 times literally and it never gets old. So yes absolutely progressing all of WotLK like I played it on retail would be the greatest thing ever.

While you might enjoy raiding at "interactive cutscene difficulty" out of nostalgia, without nostalgia it's a horrible experience. I personally prefer getting the actual experience that people had back in the day or that I had myself, which includes wiping, figuring out why you wiped, adapt and improve, experience personal and guild growth and end up overcoming the challenges and clearing the raid. I for example never played tbc and started on onyxia at the start of black temple/hyjal patch. Black temple was fine, but hyjal was an absolutely horrible experience. the first time it was fun because it brought the WC3 memories back, but with 0 difficulty, it felt just like a pure waste of time to do it more than once. Sunwell on the other hand felt amazing and I loved to see how in a few weeks my guild showed so much more improvement than in the previous months combined. Killing the first bosses the first times felt extremely good. because it was an actual challenge and something that felt like you can be proud of. with the nerfs it's a bit "eh". I looked forwards to progressing M'uru and KJ, which were supposed to be some of the hardest fights in wow. with the nerfs, muru didnt give me any of that desired experience and we just bursted it in 2minutes and it just feels cheap/wrong to feel like you actually did that boss. I would genuinely prefer being stuck on muru until my guild disbanded and getting to experience the difficulty which people had back then, than to burst it in 2 minutes. If I want this experience I run it with lvl 80s and it feels awfully similar. Unbuffed naxxramas is so much easier than post-nerf sunwell, that it will feel 100% pointless to ever enter that raid again after having it cleared once, other than for loot, which wont be needed to clear ulduar, since that wont be buffed either.
I've personally killed lod hundreds of times too, and the reason it never gets old to me, is because it has difficulty to it and I still feel like I can improve my own gameplay and do better in the fight. Wihout that difficulty, it just feels like a waste of time to repeat it, as it triggers 0 personal growth, requires 0 thinking or anything else that a game should provide

[jmsvanbuskirk]

It won't be easy. You're getting confused. This TBC had nerfed values that they had in WotLK pre-patch and forward because this is a Wrath client. All they did was increase the boss health. Sunwell was also still nerfed even before they lowered the health. You played Sunwell on medium difficulty basically and you're telling me that's a challenge.

WotLK will not be nerfed like that. It will be the original values. The discussion is buffing it above those levels. The difference is basically like 10-20 wipes on a boss versus triple digit wipes for some guilds. You will 1000% be experiencing content more difficult than the Sunwell "pre-nerf" you just experienced next year. Yogg 0 keepers, Mimiron hard mode, Algalon turning your tank inside out, Anub heroic, LK heroic, Halion heroic. Imagine ICC 25 heroic while wearing TOC gear trying to kill LDW, DBS, PP, BQL or Sindra. You have to progress up to it. It's a very different game from Icecrown and Lordaeron in that aspect.

So no it won't be free kills and fall over bosses. Probably only in Naxx and that's fine because it's the first phase. My observation of the player base lately on those other realms is they're all over-geared and cheese the content. Players can get carried easily which they often do. And they don't know the details of the fights. They never even had to learn. It doesn't translate very well. So I believe the struggle will be real, but it's within reason.

[Obnoxious]

I hopefully did explain my reasoning in my previous post earlier in the thread

No, I had seen that. I expected you to have something, let's say, better. With some "density" to it. I simply don't consider some conjecturing (potentially self-serving) about how a group of players - which I'm not sure you're part of, but for sure can say you aren't a representative of - feel about there being a planned update to implement official post-nerf values.

Naturally there might be a niche group that was on the cusp of progressing and who might feel disappointed that the update came before they managed to. But, as the label says, it's a niche situation, not this huge faceless mass you try to make it out to be. Plus, as callous as it might sound, we have to think of the server overall, the actual majority whose numbers we can see and who aren't on the path to beating it.

In the end of the day, my personal opinion on this sort of thing has always been: you can nerf yourself with unoptimal choices (bad spec, bad class composition, worse gear, self-imposed mechanics handicaps, etc.) if you want to do content in a harder way, but people can't "buff" themselves to beat something that is just beyond the group's capabilities.

[bloodelfko]

I can try to offer some perspective on the whole shebang. Currently I am on the "nerfed from the start" side. However, I used to be on the "buffed for challenge and satisfying achievement" side.

The only real compromise you guys have right now would be releasing buffed content on Saturday for the racers and the hardcore. Let them struggle. Let them have their go at it. Then immediately on Wednesday, nerf it. That way the server only misses one lockout and the racers get to have their race and circlejerk.

So the dev team has to either go with this compromise, or stick to entirely nerfed values throughout (Blizzlike just like 2004 - 2010)

Why anything else is bad?
1. Buffed content throughout -> No brainer. You have catered to a very specific casual donator player base. You will push them away and lose more than half the population in the span of a month. The rest in the few months that follow, with 80% of it gone by the release of the next phase. Why? Because to progress current content one needs BiS gear from the previous phase. Not being able to farm them weekly (as the content is too hard for 80% of the players) would now put all the guilds in a position to REQUIRE their players to buy the items from the online shop. Something which I am sure sounds crazy good to Warmane. However, most people would rather quit the server for good than being forced to purchase and donate. I mean... Is it a donation if it is mandatory?

2. Keeping it buffed for 3-4 weeks and then nerfing it -> Yeah... that one is the worst. This thread is literally born out of this. Let me tell you what you just did with SWP.
1) You stroked the racers ego and then took it away after 3 weeks. They have nothing to brag about right now and are losing their minds over why they wasted days in preparations. Their record kills shattered the first 2 hours after the nerf by casual guilds who now have bragging rights over them is such a blow on their ego (the one thing they play for) that they are left to ponder what to do until the next expansion. Plus, now they need to double check if this will happen again in the future (hence this thread).
2) You took away 3 weeks of gear from the rest of the server. Not a big deal currently as this gear is kind of obsolete for WotLK. But this is a unique time that you could pull this and not completely ruin the majority of the player's progression. Refer back to 1. for a reminder how locking out regular players from loot hurts the community as a whole.
3) The people who actually managed to farm some of that gear realized that not only that they can't brag with it now after the nerf, but they might as well shove it up their assess as there are just as good items coming soon from WotLK Heroics. Second blow for the hardcore players.
4) A decent amount of the hardcore racers are donators, if not all of them. They bought the BiS items they needed to be able to clear and race. Only for them to live with the achievement for 2-3 weeks. LMAO! Talk about cheap thrills. Third blow for the hardcore players. Are they out yet?

In the end the best business strategy for Warmane is to have as many players who are willing to donate in the shope as possible. Considering the current player base across all of Warmane's realms, keeping the content nerfed from release to the end (as it is a progression server) is the best approach.
As I said before, you guys always have the option of opening a buffed realm in parallel for those hardcore players to let them scratch that itch. Not that Warmane as a business would/should care for the itch of ~1000 players compared to the hurt of ~11000.

Personally, I find people like Allylilith bizarre. Looking for a challenge in WoW is like racing with the kids from the block with RC cars, and expecting to have bragging rights that you are an F1 racer by winning against harder and harder obstacles (that you demand out of all the kids to participating in). It's just not your game / server mate. Move on. PM me if you want hard games. I can give you some. Go challenge yourself as a gamer on actually challenging and hard things. Not WoW. WoW is not that game. Never has been. Never should be. There is a reason why Frostmourne dies out on a regular basis 4 months after launch every time.

[Obnoxious]

This thread is literally born out of this.

This thread has less posts than some topics from someone complaining they got ganked. Many posts also from the same people. And many from people who want no nerfs at all or even buffs. Do you really want to use this thread as an argument? Are you sure?

Regarding your "four reason why it's bad," you're going even further than the other guy, and now acting like you speak for and understand pretty much every single different group of players out there? People who raced still can brag about doing it before nerfs. No one "lost three weeks," the content was there for anyone to try, and those who wouldn't be able to do it get a chance to later do an easier version. It's only a "loss" if people didn't even care to try and challenge themselves - you know, that thing called "playing the game." If all the fake outrage is removed, you have nothing to say.

[bloodelfko]

You wanted an explanation. I gave you a detailed explanation. You don't want to take it. That's your choice. Do what you want. Nobody will tell you anything when they quit, they just will. I gave you the reasons why they would. Choose to ignore them at your own peril.

Can we link youtube videos here? https://youtu.be/BKP1I7IocYU?si=IW6IInrW5MPY6E7u

If not, I recommend people go watch "Why it's rude to suck at Warcraft" on youtube. It encapsulates everything I am saying and more on this topic. And if people choose not to do so... then there is really no point in discussing is there? At the end of the day, the people who don't want to bother, won't. This goes in every direction. Players with server, players with players, and server with players.

[Obnoxious]

No, you gave some opinions that aren't even widely shared, and tried to paint them as heralding doom if not heard - now with a serving of doubling down in the last post.
I wanted hard facts explaining why it's bad, not why you feel it's bad if everyone happens to feel the way you do.

[jmsvanbuskirk]

There is nothing bad about original values. Doing buffed content is just Frostmourne Season 4. Which isn't what Onyxia was ever about.

The idea though of buffing then nerfing after a few weeks as mentioned is the issue. It wasn't a small group affected by it at all in Sunwell, it was the majority of guilds. Reducing boss health removed the dps check on Brutallus almost entirely. Twins and Muru are far more challenging the longer they are alive, but the nerf made them get steamrolled. And you might think cool now more guilds can experience it, but in reality all those guilds spent several hours wiping on these bosses slowly progressing just to have it mean nothing. And a multitude of guilds got hard stuck in frustration because it was too much.

I'll give some real factual feedback on it having experienced it. My guild disbanded. Got stuck 4/6. Players got fed up wiping to nonsense for hours. We would've cleared it with the nerfs, but people didn't show up after a bad night. There were a couple guilds we thought of merging with and they both disbanded as well. One never killed Brutallus and the other stuck at 4/6 as well. That's just how it goes. So some people complain about it not being challenging enough, congrats to you guys for even getting to experience the content at all. It's really tough to game with people for 10 months of your life and get that close to winning to have it fall apart. These people just aren't at that level. I don't want to go through that again next year with whatever guild I join next. Anyway just another perspective.

[Obnoxious]

Thank you for exemplifying the niche I was talking about.

[Laydhen]

My humble opinion is that big nerfs mid-patch feel so weird and unnatural.

I've felt it when i played Blizzard's WOTLK Classic and we were on ICC, progressing on Heroic Professor Putricide and doing better each week, the progress felt really close... and boom ICC 5% stat buff was introduced and we DESTROYED him, then went to Heroic Sindragosa and also killed her after some few wipes and then we started our progress on heroic LK where we got a bit stuck again, but still doing better each week... until the next 5% buff was introduced and again we killed him pretty easily compared to how we were doing before.

It felt like as we "missed" or "skipped" a part of the game. We couldn't experience Sindragosa HC progress or PP's last phase progress. We didn't feel the PP kill rewarding even after all the good progress we were making. Same for LK, we suddenly destroyed the valkyrs and we didn't experience too much the DPS check on them. These mid-patch buffs make you take "jumps" in the progress and you miss or skip some parts of it, and then you feel like you didn't live the whole experience of progressing through ICC as it's meant to be if that makes sense. And i don't agree with that thing about handicapping yourself with bad gear or bad composition or whatever if you kill things "too easily"... the fun part of all this is doing the best you can and finding every improvement you can make in order to achieve the goals.

To be honest i don't mind if we get pre-nerf or post-nerf values, it would be fun anyway, i just want the selected values to stay through the entire thing to let us live the entire progress experience without these "jumps" that feel so unnatural and take away the satisfaction of killing new bosses you struggled before. I mean this for every raid, not only ICC. The best thing about wow raiding is struggling and making your best and then achieving progress and feeling good about it, nerfs take that away. I prefer being stuck on a boss and slowly reach progress instead of nerfs allowing us to kill it.

PS: i know you can disable ICC buff but that but it's really hard to make that decision, it's weird to willingly leave yourself behind or force a struggle on your raid, similar to the self handicapping i mentioned above. Motivation to progress struggles when the solution is one click away.